When Ha’aretz printed an article about Olmert testimony to the commission investigating the war, in which Israel’s PM declared that he discussed and reviewed plans to attack Lebanon almost four months before the summer’s war.
Immediatly, Hezbollah’s media outlets pounced on the article, circulating it widely, claiming that Olemrt’s testimony vindicated their own verison of events and discredited all those who accused Hezbollah of being the one responsible for the war and its tragedies.
For Hezbollah has been claiming, since the end of the war, that Israel was planning the attack on Lebanon months before July, and the war would have happened whether Hezbollah abducted the two soldiers for not! In an effort to placate all the anger and blame that targeted Hezbollah and accused it of being responsible of starting the war.
However Hezbollah missed or purposely omitted the rest of Olmert testimony, the article states that it is true that months before the war, Israel’s PM reviewed plans to attack Lebanon IF, and I stress, only IF Hezbollah kidnapped any Israeli soldiers! In view of the previous failed attempts to abduct soldiers in 2005.It is a small two letters word, but in this case it is crucial. What Al-Manar TV failed to point out is that if Hezbollah did not kidnap those two soldiers the war would not have happened, neither in the summer or in the autumn as Hezbollah claimed!
In conclusion, Israel war, whether it was planned before hand or not, was directly caused by the kidnapping of the two soldiers. So the responsibility of all the killing, destruction and tragedies lay squarely at Hezbollah feet! And if Nassrallah did not give the order to kidnap those soldiers, Israel would not have attacked Lebanon, and all those innocent civilians would still be alive.
9 comments :
BOB I can utter one word , and only one word ... UNBELEIVABLE ....... you are absolutely unbeleivable, i can not say more ...
Finally someone to argue with again....
Rabie_Halad said...
>Did Hezballah know that if they captured and not kidnapped, the two soldiers which were on Lebanese soil, that Israel would retaliate in this way?
Just because you didn't know poking a bear with a stick over and over again was going to make him attack you speaks of stupidity on behalf of the one holding the stick, not of cruelty by the bear.
>What Israel did was completely wrong to all humanity, how many soldiers are kidnapped throughout the year in other countries?
This was far from the first time HA kidnapped Israeli soldiers, the fact that it was during a mutually declared peace time was what made it so audacious not to mention, that HA tried a kidnapping earlier in 2005.
>If every country started bombing the other ones for kidnapped soldiers we would end up with no earth. Israel's reaction was completely wrong.
It's funny you use such a line of reasoning.
As everyone will recall, HA's financial and arms puppet master, Iran, had spent the previous months talking about the need to "wipe Israel off the map" and HA had positioned itself for sometime as the MEANS by which to follow through on this threat.
The Iranian C-102 missile batteries already placed in Southern Lebanon with fully staffed Revolutionary Guard Battery Unitsprior to the HA-Israeli War are proof that HA new exactly what kind of tree it was barking up.
>I believe the questions in this whole article are Why was Israel planning these attacks anyway?
Defensive plans for the very trap that Syria and Iran via HA tried to spring.
Couldn't they find another way to deal with their problems?
Well, that's a good question.
What is good plan for dealing with a group that, despite resolutions and agreements to the UN that HA disarm following the 2000 withdrawal of Israeli forces, not only kept, but increased stockpiling weapons caches and pumping out "Death to Israel" propaganda?
>What you say is true it's amazing how Hezballah can spin the logic through Al-Manar, it's also amazing how America spins the logic through CNN, March 14 spins the logic through Future (even with the numbers on the tv counting the days after hariri), Al-Jazeera spins the media, Fox news, Media these days is playing one of the biggest parts in the human mind.
Until I hear an anchor on Fox News advocating strapping bombs to their chests and detonating them for the specific purpose of targeting civilians, Al-Manar will remain the king of spin.
>BTW It's also amazing how you can spin logic through the internet bob (this is not an insult i couldn't find another way to write it) through words you use such as Hezballah kidnaps and not captured.
You say "martyr", while another says a insane murderer who targets civilians.
When enemy soldiers are seized during war, it's called "capturing."
When it's done in peace time it's called "kidnapping."
Anonymous said...
>BOB I can utter one word , and only one word ... UNBELEIVABLE ....... you are absolutely unbeleivable, i can not say more ...
One might think you mean UNBELIEVABLE in regards to how people can believe that HA is up to anything other than causing war and violence whether it be in the summer vs. Israel or in the winter vs. their fellow Lebanese.
But maybe UNBELIEVABLE refers to the recent defection of the Iranian Deputy Defense Minister, Ali-Reza Askari, who is credited with being one of the founding fathers of HA, and is CURRENTLY being credited with disclosing all sorts of classified information on HA operations in Lebanon, how it is funded and armed by Iran, etc.
UNBELIEVABLE indeed...
http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/source/021710.html
http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/source/021773.html
In the same testimony, Olmert said that he was willing to give back Shaba Farms to the Lebanese Government through diplomatic channels, but HA and Iran realized that this will be the end of HA's Arsenal, so they decided to kidnapp Israeli soldiers, start a meaningless war, so that they can come and say: "See, if it wasn't for HA, Israel would have wipped Liban from the map!!!??"
for more info, check up my blog.
Rabie_Halad said...
>HA soldiers have captured before, but why did Israel attack this time? Why would they plan the attack and have 2 soldiers so far in?
One reason is what FaiLaSooF stated about Israel prepared to return Shebaa Farms and that destroying HA reason for existence.
And by the way, if Shebaa Farms is Syrian property, then why is a LEBANESE militia fighting for the return of Syrian property? That's about as blatant as it gets in showing that HA is just a foriegn puppet operating on Lebanese soil.
But, the main reason is that shortly before the HA vs. Israel war began, Israel had invaded Palestinian territory over the killing of two and kidnapping of one if its soldiers near the border.
So, there was proof of how Israel would react if HA tried another kidnapping.
HA knew exactly what would happen and made the cross border raid on purpose.
Why? The same reason, Hamas kidnapped the 19 year old soldier in the first place. Abbas had HAmas backed into a corner where the creation of a Palestinian state (that recognized Israel) was finally going to be possible with Israel on board.
The only way to keep this from happening was for Hamas to stir up trouble with the kidnapping knowing the responce by the IDF.
And HA got the order for Iran to further inflame the situation to
1) divert attention from the brewing storm at the UN Security Council over it's nuke program, and
2) to show the kind of power Iran has throughout the region with its proxy armies like HA and Hamas (at the time, Hamas is now back under Saudi control following the Mecca Accord) as a warning to further moves against its nuke program.
So, yes HA knew exactly what it was doing, as it was again following orders by Tehran.
Another reason for IDF predictable reaction is that it knows it can show any passivity or hesitation in the region given its history of being attacked from all sides, and it has been there typical response of fighting all aggressors, no matter how many at once, that should have also been realized by HA prior to instigating the Summer War.
>Think about it your car gets stolen, you get it back, whats the first thing you do? Install a security system.
Israel only "stole the Lebanese car" the first time around because Arafat was using Lebanon as cover for attacks against Israel, and when that was resolved more or less, HA filled the void of aggressor and gave the IDF a reason to stick around longer.
After the 2000 withdrawal, what possible motive would Israel have had for bringing damage to a now Western backed Lebanese government to its north other than to finally stand up to HA?
No HA, no reason for Israel to give Lebanon a second glance through its gun sights.
>Since when has an al-manar reporter strapped a bomb on to them and detonated it? and sorry but everyone knows CNN is the kings of twisting logic and in Lebanon it has to be Future TV.
I read an article delving into the psychology behind groups like HA which use a grand social detachment to justify its murdering in the name of religion.
It cited the example of a segment aired on Al-Manar TV glorifying a 4 year old Palestinian girl who was talking about how happy she was that her father had "martyred" himself in an attack against Israelis, knowing that he was in heaven for doing so.
>and what are you on about martyr? are you speaking to me or someone else? i never said martyr, and when did anyone blow up innocent civilians?
By airing the pro-martyrdom peace on HA's Al-Manar TV, HA is in effect supporting such actions. And HA supporters are in therefore also endorsing such actions.
Now, if you're not an HA supporter, but rather an opposition member, then, setting aside your belief that "I don't care anymore the whole world is going to finish," if the world was in fact going to keep rolling on as it did through WWII and other global calamitous events, what is it that you want?
Are you looking for the creation of a Lebanese society that is peaceful and prosperous, with a good economy, good relations with all, etc.
And if this is something you're looking for, why do you believe HA or the opposition would be able to better achieve it than the current government that has been able to procure a renewed interest by foreign investors in Telecom and Electrical utilities (once privatization is finally approved - HA being the hold up)?
It's war brought by HA (both foreign and domestic) and it's strangling of the economy with sit-ins and parliamentary obstruction that has chased away Lebanon's best and brightest, not March 14th.
Beyond ethnic loyalty, what is the appeal that the opposition and/or HA has for a bright future in Lebanon?
I'm constantly trying to understand the line of reasoning for their support.
First Rabie welcome back! We missed you!
Second Anonymous, you have an opinion about me or my blog feel free to share it but please elaborate and try to use some coherent thinking...
Back to Rabie
There is one thing we have to agree on first, HA crossed the blue line! It is a well documented fact, Israeli soldiers were on a routine patrol when HA crossed the blue line and killed three and kidnapped two. Now if you don’t agree to that plz bring me some proof about it, some reference would be great!
Here are some reference about the fact that HA crossed the Blue line (you might notice that I choose Medias that are considered neutral or even pro-Hezbollah –like AL jJazeera-)
1-BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm
“In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon”
2-Al JAzera
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=24660
"Hezbollah fighters seize two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Three Israeli soldiers are also killed in the attack."
3-Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict
"The conflict began when Hezbollah fired Katyusha rockets and mortars at Israeli military positions and border villages, diverting attention from another Hezbollah unit that crossed the border, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers and killing three others"
Moreover Israel prepared for another attempt of Hezbollah in the wake of the failed Gajar attack by Hezbollah to kidnapped Israeli soldiers in 2005 and in view of the constant threats by Nassrallah that he will try to kidnap more soldiers. What do you think that Israel will stand till and watch while Nassrallah keeps on threatening them???? Of course they will make plans!!
It is true that Israel considers Chebba farms Syrian but that does not refute what Failasoof said. And the future will show how Israel will hand over the farms to the UN as a compromise! Unless Nassrallah decides otherwise and launch another war…
Finally if you have another version of events please provide further references and evidences. Until that time For me at least Hezbollah crossed into Israel and kidnapped two soldieres.
Rabie_Halad,
I was not aware of your lack of steady internet situation and assumed you had been keeping pace with previous posts.
To start off with what I say as the most incorrect statement on your part:
>Who told you that HA got order from Iran? Your brain? Not even America or Israel know if HA has gotten any orders from Iran now your coming to tell me they did?
For starters I'll go with your reference to HA:
>someone that has been helping the south, someone that after the war was handing out money to people,
The money for that "helping hand" came directly from Iran, it's the reason why the US started its sanctions against Iran's main bank, Sepah International.
On to a recent event, the defection of an Iranian General who oversaw the creation of HA in Lebanon, which casts a bright light on Iran's involvement in the founding of HA:
"In 1982-83, Askari (along with Ayatollah Ali-Akbar Mohatashami-Pour) founded the Lebanese branch of Hezbollah and helped set up its first military units."
http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/source/021773.html
And another article on the same subject:
"A former Iranian deputy defense minister who once commanded the Revolutionary Guard has left his country and is cooperating with Western intelligence agencies, providing information on Hezbollah and Iran's ties to the organization, according to a senior U.S. official."
"Ram Igra, a former Mossad officer, said Asgari spent much of the 1980s and 1990s overseeing Iran's efforts to support, finance, arm and train Hezbollah. The State Department lists the Shiite Lebanese group as a terrorist organization.
"He lived in Lebanon and, in effect, was the man who built, promoted and founded Hezbollah in those years," Igra told Israeli state radio. "If he has something to give the West, it is in this context of terrorism and Hezbollah's network in Lebanon."
http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/source/021710.html
And just to touch on another item your mentioned previously about Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmed Nejad comment: "Israel must be wiped off the map" being a misquote.
That is a technically accurate statement. Ahmed Nejad actually said: "Allah will wipe Israel off the map".
The reason why there is no true difference is because Nejad's radical view (and that's by even Islamic Republic standards) is that it is his job to bring back the 12th Imam (aka Hidden Imam) by triggering a massive global conflict.
This view has been installed in him by his spiritual leader, the ultra reactionary Ayatollah Yazdi, who believes that all forms of man made government (e.g. parliaments, congresses, etc.) should be abolished and that only religious edict should be obeyed as interpreted by only one Supreme Guide (a position he was in line for until Ahmed Nejad's supporters took a whooping across the board in December's Iranian elections).
On his New Year's blog he said that the 12th Imam (and Jesus) will be coming back in 2007.
Now it's up to debate if it is a promise he plans to fulfill on his own, or if he's using such proclamations to get the US or Israel to fire the first shot, either way he does intend to "wipe Israel off the map."
Now on to the other parts:
>You can’t compare the Palestinian situation to Lebanon.
>Once again you use the name HA and go on to use a Palestinian example. Don’t compare Palestine to Lebanon. And what does that have to do with an Al-manar reporter strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up civilians?
I'm not comparing Lebanon to Palestine, I'm simply saying HA has an alliance with Hamas (which has involved militia training at times) and promotion of suicide bombing in Palestine (hence the 4 year old Palestinian girl example).
I do see HA as a 2.0 version of Hamas, learning from the weaknesses of it and it's predessor the PLO.
But that only means Hamas is better organized, not that they're actually capable of securing peace and prosperity for an entire nation.
I'm using the same line of logic your using by deploring the US for its support of Israel, the same as I do HA's support of Hamas.
>Again I ask Why did the Israeli’s have the attacks planned beforehand?
Cross apply Bob's arguments.
>Why should Israel be reacting like that? And still don’t agree the HA knew that attack would happen, since Israel hold 1000 of soldiers and civilians, HA were expecting a trade.
I guess that would make HA "the stupidest herd of people" if they actually believed after watching Israel invade Palestinian territory a few deals earlier in pursuit of a kidnapped IDF soldier by Hamas (who also expected to trade him for prisoners) that HA's kidnapping would not be met with the same reaction.
>How did Israel become what it is? It became what it is by removing people from their homes by doing no good, by breaking human rights, by invading territories by killing 1000’s of civilians.
I say to this, as always, if Israel is guilty of apartheid, then why don't you use the non-violent tactics that ended apartheid in South Africa, than the violent IRA tactics that have brought Ireland (which has been under British Apartheid for far longer) no closer to self-rule.
>Someone that has built in that security system to defend our country from that devilish neighbour which keeps attacking every country around us?
It was built with the aid of Iran and Syria, which allowed arms and funds to flow freely while uses it's agents in Lebanon's government to keep Lebanon from building a self-sufficient military.
Which brings me to the accusation of:
>You know why I believe HA would better support Lebanon that the current government? Because the current government has over and over again put money in their pockets and not helped the country,
For starters, the March 14th government was founded in 2005, and hasn't been in power for nearly as long as you make it sound like they have.
And if you want to talk about corrupt, HA has been using it's influence over the Electric Utility to provide free electricity to its own supporters while sticking others with the bill.
How's that for cronyism?
And on top of that, the implimentation of privatization of the electric and mobile telecommunications industries would greatly curb politicians ability to "put money in their pockets", but HA opposed this reform and listed it as one of its conditions for withdrawing from Parliament.
>It’s amazing how you say all the countries around Israel attacked it, when the region was so beautiful without Israel there.
???? You do realize that prior to Israel's creation the region was under Nazi occupation, right?
It was during this occupation that Jews in the region, especially in Jerusalem, were kidnapped and smuggled up to Nazi death camps in Europe [Source: "Saddam and the Third Reich" - The History Channel].
Say, what you want about Israels abuses, but stop acting like Palestine never did wrong prior to Israel's creation.
And even prior to Nazi Occupation, the Muslim Brotherhood was fomenting unrest, primarily in Egypt, and even prior to that, there was still conflict between all of the regions peoples, the only difference was that Ak-47's and C-4 was no where near as accessible as it is today.
> I mean kisechta if America loves them so much look how much land they have over there in America.
Hey, Miami, Fl; Los Angeles, CA; and NYC, NY how very large Jewish populations, but they chose to come back to the land that makes up Israel for the same reason Palestinians continue to fight...it's their native home.
Maybe if Palestinians could try a peaceful path for a change and would stop justifying every reported Israel abuse by firing rockets and suicide bombers at Israel, the whole peaceful two state or even ONE STATE would be possible.
Just a few words from an Israeli.
Israel is a country that always want peace. We agree to a peaceful Palestinian state, and never threatened the existence of any country. Iran and HA did that. Think about the soldiers that were kidnapped by an unprovoked attack of HA.
Returning criminal prisoners will encourage more kidnapping. Just like after the previous kidnapping in 2000.
Do you know who is Samir Quntar, the prisoner that HA want Israel to release? He crossed the Israel-Lebanon border with his terrorist gang to murder a family, including killing a little girl by smashing her head into a rock. He did that when he ran out of ammunition, and he knew the police will capture him. He was surrounded by cops, and killed the little girl barehanded in front of their eyes.
No way this kind of cruel murderer should be released.
>Anonymous said...
>Just a few words from an Israeli.
I don't know how often you check in here Anonymous, but I blog frequently and I'm an American trying to provide my perspective from the other side of the Atlantic.
Primarily Bob, and occasionally others like Jeha and Lily provide updates on events in Lebanon from a March 14th perspective, and Sam, and Rabie_Halad are HA backers.
The discussion often focuses on Israel and Palestine and it would, in my opinion, be good to have someone represent Israel's perspective and possibly also a Palestinian on a regular basis (not to mention a Syrian, an Iranian, and a Saudi to round out all of the players involved in this specific part of the region that seems to orbit Beirut).
Of course, it is definitely desired to keep things civil as Bob has continually enforced here on his blog.
But, I think the obvious friction would be worth to get a full spectrum point of view from all sides.
You description of HA's Samir Quntar was something I was not aware of and not likely to find out from those who've posted here on the subject so far.
Just a suggestion.
Mike
As always great suggestion!
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