Tuesday, January 09, 2007
Futile charge!
In WW1 large armies used to dig up trenches confronting each others, and spend countless days waiting and hiding in their holes, firing a few shots now and then. Meanwhile the tension rose and rose, until it became unbearable. Then the “great” generals would order a charge and thousands upon thousands will surge as one from their trenches… and get mowed down by countless machine guns.
I always wondered why these general ordered such useless and futile charges, and why didn’t they even try to find an alternate tactic, to achieve their objective.
Yesterday, Nassrallah and his allies, decided to launch a new series of demonstrations that will target several Ministries and could reach public facilities. And I think that today’s “generals” –referring to all the heads of the opposition, not only Aoun- should be asked the same questions: why continue this futile escalation, why order a new “charge”, knowing that it will not achieve anything, except maybe an economic meltdown, or in a worst case scenario, civil war.
As the evidence mount I am starting to believe that Hezbollah is set on destroying the economy, or at least it is using the economic issue to blackmail March 14, into submission.
However, today’s demonstration has been a startling failure, only a couple of hundred showed up. I think the opposition is losing steam. People no longer believe that demonstrations and protests can achieve anything positive. On the contrary, they are starting to feel their negative effects.
In all cases, we will have a clearer picture in the upcoming days, as the oppositions will further intensify its actions. But I believe that the last holidays lull and the failure of this demonstration is providing us with the perfect opportunity for a breakthrough in political negotiations. And I will go even further in saying that this could be our last chance to find a political compromise before the situation gets totally out of hand…
Subscribe to:
Post Comments
(
Atom
)
40 comments :
Bob, Aoun said that this is the last stage of the escalations, and that there will be no more escalations, what do you think will happen if this final and current level fails to achieve their demands?
MMMMMMMMMM
They already failed! They will not achieve anything.
What they will do is harder to predict, i hope it will not be anything foolish.
but as always the more they escalate the harder it will be to find a compromise.
finally do not take what Aoun says too seriously, he is not the one who decides...
BOB,
everytime I stop to introduce myself I find u very busy, and busy at your blog is a good thing.
Well,am the last of "faisal,heba,kamal and his wife Noura" group. My name is Houda,my husband is not allowed into this group because he has chosen the other side, but I assure you in my house March 14 rules,no reason, just because I say so. I will be standing firm like our government w ya jabal ma yehzak ree7.I hope things will stay calm,am preparing myself and my two kids 14 and 15 years old to visit home soon.Although they do not understand what's going on, they fell in love with Mr. Hariri and were very upset upon his death. My son has chosen him a study subject for a project in school and it was great.
As always,great post and like you said we hope that the opposition will wise enough not to start anything foolish.
This is a lighthearted comment to lighten up your blog,things were pretty busy previously.
Here, I said all I wanted to say just in case things get heated up again. Thank you very much and keep writing.
Houda
It is the government and only the government that is responsible for the economical situation, not the opposition.
For any economical request please address the current team that has been in power for the last 14 years.
This government is completely paralysed and will not achieve anything by desperatly clinging to power while ignoring millions of people protesting against it.
sam,
these millions of people protesting against the government didn't have any problem with it last week when it was paying them.
The government is not clinging to power, it is their rightful place,and millions are behind it.
Houda
Sam
the governement is proposing solutions:
1-paris 3
2-more Taxes (TVA)
3-Privatization of electricity (wich lost millions and was ruled by HA minister)
opposition is not proposing anything only titles fighting corruption, how?? what is the plan when all the current governement (and mafia as u say) is gone, then what?? any plan???
Lily
You know Sam when I first addressed you I was trying to give you a simple message:
Solutions can’t be with HA!!
And their actions now r making bigger problems!!!
So let’s focus on that…...
Lily
Houda
You are the most welcome!!!
Send my warmest regard and greetings to your friends! And I will be very very mad if any of you guys come to Lebanon and we do not meet!!!
Anyways feel free to drop comments any time even if it looks busy…
Some lightening up is what we all need at the moment!
Thank you and remember (you and the whole group) to drop me a call whenever you visit us. (I think I gave Faisal my phone number if not plz do email me!)
Sam
Millions and millions…
In our country numbers have been so badly abused that it has become ridiculous!
If you have access to goggle earth just try to measure the total area of both demonstrations and be generous, even add the streets leading to the squares. I bet you that you will not be able to find more than 200,000 meters squared! And you know the formula (two persons per meter or at most three)
So enough with the millions!!!!
Now about blaming the government let me correct you. Siniora has not been in office for 14 years, only 12. Those two years Hoss was PM. So he too should be held responsible (if one follows your logic) for 6$ billion of the debts (42 billions/ 14= 3 billion per year, hoss was there for two years!)
What is even worse is that (if you check the numbers, like at Nationmaster.com) you will see that at Hoss’ time (1999-2000) Lebanon GDP was negative while it ws positive throughout all the years of Hariri!
So I wonder who is to blame?
For me it is easy: Syria is the first culprit. Then the joint Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus and of course all those who held official positions (members of 14 march included)
However blaming 14 March or Siniora alone is first not true and second very unjust!
I will tell you what, I will agree (as if this does any difference) to have a total audit of the country’s finance if and only if you agree to open all corruption files! Including Aoun’s and Hezbollah of course! So we open all and I stress ALL files! Anything else would be unacceptable and would certainly not reform the country’s finance; you will just replace a bunch of thieves by another!
Peace
Bob,
Ok, enough with the millions we'll let the Lebanese people decide by vote with an electoral law everyone agrees on (not the one designed by Syria and imposed in a rush by the US).
As for Hoss you are right his GDP was negative because he stopped creating more deficits and awarding new ones to the Hariri mafia but kept honoring the previous ones which kept the deficits growing. He is guilty of not prosecuting the thieves among them. As for an audit, I'm all for it.
Now accusing Syria for our deficits is BS: Syria was in Lebanon from 1975 to 2005
from 1975 to 1992, we had no debts to speak of. But from 1992 to 2005 all of a sudden when the Hariri mafia took over the deficits shot up to 41 billions.
Just stop doing like those arabs that keep blaming the others for all our problems (not that I'm defending Syria's role in Lebanon)
No this is not by chance this has been planned for from the very beginning:
Create huge deficits and distribute money then ask for help and the US gives us the money in exchange for giving citizenship to 400,000 palestinians. Thank you but no Lebanon is not for sale.
Houda,
The rightful place for the remaining people in this government is in prison.
If we had independant judges that prosecute all the stealings that have been taking place for the last 14 years most of them would go to prison.
Lily,
1-There was already paris 1 and 2 with same team
2-there was already the Taxes (TVA)
with the same team
3-There was already privatisations with the same team
And we got 41 billion deficit that is still growing!!
These are their actions and this is the result it is a fact.
Isn't 14 years enough? How much is it before you tell those guys enough? They failed again and again for years, why? because the core of the problem is unbearable corruption, just face it.
The solution is a clean government lead by a clean sunni. The problem is not a religious problem it is a political problem and a corruption problem. Some (not you) are Making this a sunni-shii problem is ugly, very very ugly and it is an insult to every Lebanese. Both camps comprise all sects, and that is great.
You are accusing the opposition of not been able to solve the problem BEFORE it ever had a chance to lead a government but AFTER 14 years of total disaster you are still trying to defend the team responsible for this situation: 41 billion deficit, no jobs, more taxes and a dead economy... come on Lily!!
sam
first
stop with the 14 years thing i told it was only 12
now you did not tell me do you agree to audit even Aoun and Hezbollah or is this just about 14 march
the number of Palestinians in currently in lebanon is less than 250,000! UNERWA numbers! and an overwhelming majority of them wish to immegrate to developed countries (the west or Australia ...) not palestaine and not even stay in LB!
and you are wrong too concerning Hoss two year in government he spent more money than the previous or later government!!
WARNING LONG ECONMIC DISUCUSSION WITH LOTS OF NUMBER!!!!!
SORRY ABOUT THAT :)
An example (official numbers of the finance ministry issued by Hoss himself)
1998 (year before Hoss took office)
Numbers are in billions of LBP
income 4,022
expenditure 7,269
loss 3,246
percentage 45%
1999 (hoss comes into office)
income 4,547
expenditure 8,502
loss 3,955
percentage 47%
2000 (second year hoss in office)
income 4,190
expenditure 8,883
loss 4,693
percentage 53%
2001 (Hariri comes back into office)
income 4,259
expenditure 8,211
loss 3,952
percentage 48%
To sum it up, Hoss comes into office he INCREASE the government expenditure while DECREASING its income.
Hariri comes back into office get thing under control and lower expenditure, but the damage was done!!
Now HA like Hoss and I m sure they will follow in his econoic footsteps.
So thanks but no thanks!!!!
Finally, one more thing, when Hariri came into office the debt was already 5,000 billion LBP, so once again you are wrong when you say that there was no debt. and if this debt was left alone its interest would amount to more than 8,000 alone (if i take interest rate =15% over 14 years, at the time the rates were a whopping 20 or even 30% at soem times ,because Omar karameh another one loved by Hezbollah wrecked the Lira and drove it to 3000 lira= 1 dollars)
So at the very least there is 11,ooo from the debt of the war!
This whole “the 40 billion dollars debt is caused by Hariri” is a total lie!! And in the upcoming days I will write a post to further elucidated this blatant lie that HA and its allies have been propagating!!
In truth without Hariri Lebanon would be bankrupt at the moment!
Sam,
You cited in the prior post: "Concerning HA: just read the report from the Near East Policy institute (pro israeli) and it clearly states that HA's decision making is independant."
I couldn't find the article you were referring to, but I did find this passage:
"Hezbollah, a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, was responsible for more American deaths than any other terrorist organization until September 11. Highlights of Hezbollah’s record of terror attacks include suicide truck bombings targeting U.S. and French forces in Beirut (in 1983 and 1984) and U.S. forces again in Saudi Arabia (in 1996), its record of suicide bombing attacks targeting Jewish and Israeli interests such as those in Argentina (1992 and 1994) and in Thailand (attempted in 1994), and a host of other plots targeting American, French, German, British, Kuwaiti, Bahraini and other interests in plots from Europe to Southeast Asia to the Middle East. [4]"
You have numbers to point to for the 12 years of Hariri associated rule, but HA has nothing more than a terrorist wrap sheet to go beyond it's short time spent in minority rule in Lebanon's government.
And again,
>The problem is not a religious >problem it is a political problem and >a corruption problem.
Why do you keep promoting a group whose name means "Party of God" and is financially backed by the most reactionary theocratic government in the world to create a non-religious political solution?
Given Lily's first hand accounts of how HA interacts with the public, do you truly have any clue what your proposing the Lebanese population get themselves involved in?
HA doesn't strike me as a group interested in giving up power if the next election cycle doesn't go their way.
Their stubborn reaction to past demands of the Lebanese government and two UN resolutions calling for their disarmament should give insight into their true view of abiding by the rule of law.
An opposition party back in the early 1900's in Russia claimed that if they were put in power they would put an end to the government's corruption.
When they did finally ascend to power they replaced reform with an iron fisted authoritarian state that kept monthly arrest and execution quotas to keep the population living in constant fear all the while funneling all of the public funds towards the war machine of the state.
Now, we all know HA's intentions towards Israel to the south. And "ending corruption" might just be code-speak for going after Israel again, because after all, corruption can only be caused by the "zionists", right?
You also keep making a case for corruption against March 14th, but is not taking $100's of millions of dollars from foreign governments, shooting their weapons, assassinating their rivals, starting their wars just as corrupt, or even more so?
And since Tourism is such a major economic lifeline for Lebanon, how many tourist dollars do you expect to attract from all those rich Arabs and Europeans in a Shiite Iran controlled Beirut?
With the tentacles of a sworn enemy now controlling their once beloved vacation hotspot, what keeps them from choosing a less stress inducing destination for their leisure trips?
And how effective will these HA courts be after they've jailed all of March 14th for corruption?
Do you truly believe they would be foolish enough to swing their gavels towards Nasrallah with his henchman constantly lurking about? How could someone dare rule against the "Party of God"? That would be grounds for immediate dismissal, if not more action taken.
It's his militia minions that have kept him from being arrested since the start of the Israel Lebanon war last summer for instigating the hostilities.
If he had been arrested and charged for the kidnappings of the two Israeli soldiers that are still being held somewhere in Southern Lebanon, Syria, or Iran, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO WAR!
Nasrallah isn't capable of being a leader of a prosperous secular independent nation. He's a thug with an AK-47 and a microphone.
He's a gangster who has risen to power through fear, intimidation, and bribery, not from coming up with feasible economic policies and laws to restore a beleagured economy.
To March 14th supporters:
There's an old saying that a vampire cannot come in to your house unless you invite him in.
Now tensions are obviously high, but by focusing on peaceful solutions or just simply having patience in dealing with the problems of the moment, they too will eventually pass(not that I'm saying you're not already doing this in full force).
By being the peace you seek, Nasrallah and company won't have any of the necessary fuel his movement needs to escalate things and will, in turn, implode on itself.
If you've come this far...
Bob,
Giving details about the failure of successive governments just reinforces my point: THEY ALL FAILED.
What you are doing is attacking Hoss as if I want Hoss to lead the next government.
I said that Hoss failed too, I agree with you on that.
People who failed should step aside.
Hoss failed, Karame failed (and had the decency to RESIGN)
And Siniora and his team failed miserably. None of them should come back to power.
None of them took on corruption head on and this is the main problem today.
Now concerning giving palestinians citizenship, you are saying that the problem doesn't exist: great, than why is israel/US talking about it?
Why did Hariri give citizenship to 300,000 syrians in 1994?
Here let me again stress out that the Lebanese asking this failed government (as we can see in your great detailed numbers) to resign are the OPPOSITION. It is an OPPOSITION demand not an HA demand.
But again you are trying to focus on HA, why? Is it because you are a sectarian that only wants to take on certain people from a certain sect?
The opposition comprises all parts of Lebanese society and all religions and sects and parties, but you only focus on one party.
This is such a disgrace.
Slavic Mike,
Your entire talk is about HA, which is not the topic.
HA is a resistance movement supported by the vast majority of countries and people (only 4 or 5 countries allied with the terrorist zionist entity consider it terrorist).
Moreover its agenda is purely DEFENSIVE.
So people who are giving so much focus to HA just prove that HA is doing the right thing.
HA is getting stronger everyday and this is something you can't do anything about.
As for me as a Lebanese, I am calling for the Lebanese army to emulate their successful military tactics.
Sam
Don’t get me wrong I am not defending anyone but as Bob said I am just choosing the” lesser of 2 evils” and that doesn’t mean that I accept all their acts……I am not talking in a sectarian way or about religion Sunni/ Shiite ect… I do respect all religions and all human beings, this is not my point.
I already told u ,religion must not be mixed with politics and yes the opposition is from all sects but unfortunately it adopted a big religious party and I can’t understand how an atheist like u can accept that. I know u r not HA, u said it but u r supporting the opposition therefore u support HA. Maybe if the opposition didn’t have HA I would have had different position….so I guess basically we stress on HA because they r religious fanatic party and we all know what happens when such a party leads a country!!!! It just freaks me out to think that they might take over the country. Do u really trust them Sam???
And Sam I am not only accusing the opposition of not being able to solve the problem, I am accusing them of making the problem even bigger, how would I trust them when they r acting in such a destructive way??? Based on that (1-making a choice of adopting HA
2-aggravating the situation) I can’t give them a chance, it is just too risky
Lily
When you say all failed, whom do you mean exactly?
Do you include Hezbollah that have taken part in the government and did not solve any problem? (especially the problems in their own ministry, like the electricity?)
So whom do you think should rule? You know everybody in the opposition was included in both Karameh and Hoss’s government. Except Aoun…
To enable me to argue please state that does you want to rule in Lebanon. If you say the opposition it already includes many of those who “failed” as you said. If not please specify
Again you use numbers without even checking them.
I am sure in a couple of days you will even go back to say that Hariri or Siniora are responsible for the 40 billion debt. Although I proved by numbers that it was not so!
About your 300,000 Syrian naturalized, please provide numbers and sources.
Lily,
in your last post you expressed the problem that you, and many Lebanese, have with HA which is that they are afraid of it as a religious party that might impose an extreme muslim system on them, and you asked: do you trust them?
The answer is yes but only since Hassan Nasrallah took the leadership not before. When tufeili was at the head of Hezbollah I hated this party because for me it was just what you are describing (although even then then they didn't scare me because no party in Lebanon can impose its will on the other).
Since 1994 under Nasrallah things have totally changed.
Now here are reasons why I'm not afraid, not the least:
1-Hezbollah even under tufeili didn't try to impose anything on non shiites in the south
2- When Hezbollah tried to impose strict rules on everybody (under tufeili), the people who resisted them the most were... the shiites themselves! They were and would be the first ones to rebel.
-3 In the 1990's a lot of Lebanese shia came from Africa where they were born and settled in the ancestral villages of their grand parents (in the south) and unlike many Lebanese not only do they not care much about religion but they are very liberal (specially sexually) and clashed head on with the Hezbollah of the time (actually they are more liberal than any other group in Lebanon).
4- When Hassan Nasrallah took over one of the first things he did was to cease coercing secular shiites, much more than that he OFFICIALLY abandoned the idea of creating a muslim state in Lebanon unless more than 90% of the people wanted one (which is never going to happen) and even his enemies recognize he is a man of his word
(In an interview with a Romanian newspaper Olmert declared 2 days ago that Nasrallah was "the most courageous man on earth").
5- Nasrallah declared in 2000 when the south was being liberated "Massihiou Lebnan Aayounouna wa kouloubouna" not a single christian received a slap because of Hezbollah (just compare with the 7000 dead christians and 200,000 displaced in the chouf in a similar situation in 1983)
6- Hassan said "They can kill a thousand Hammoud but we will not respond and we will never use our weapons against any Lebanese" (pretty scary isn't it Lily!) and indeed Hezbollah under his command never did (under previous leadership there were clashes with Amal but never under Hassan).
7- Hassan's father was a SSNP member (like my father) and as you know this is a totally secular party (do you think he is going to attack his family?).
8- Hassan said that he will not rest until his childhood friend Nasim Nisr (who is Jewish) gets out of israeli jails and comes back to his village (the same as Hassan's village) as a free man. Indeed Nassim went into israel to spy for the Lebanese resistance when Lebanon was under occupation and no one cared because "they are just shiites" (tfeh aala hel aalyyeh). Among the other prisoners one is Druze and the other (Yahya Skaff) I'm not sure.
Shebaa is entirely owned by Sunni Lebanese not a single shii.
Does this profile of Hassan correspond to the "fanatical" one that scares you? what does he need to do for you to stopped being scared? I mean he is the most gentle person we ever had in a powerful position, he never abused his power,never ever.
9- When there was the Danish embassy attack he immediately ordered Hezbollah to limit access to the zone for extremists and help the lebanese army stop the incident. The next day Hassan went to the church in Ashrafieh to express his indignation at the guys who desecrated it.
I can go on but in the end trust is something that can't be forced on others. I personally trust Hassan Nasrallah more than any other politician in Lebanon. Should I say the opposite just because he is shiite and I don't have any shiites in my family?
Should I do like many Lebanese that don't like someone just because he is from this sect or this religion? (in this case, like you, I would have to choose between my father and my mother ;-) )!
Should I be scared from someone because he is different or because he has a black thing on his head that signals he is a descendent of the prophet (hence the title sayyed)?
No I refuse this mentality, like Bob said it is ugly. I choose to respect people who are good I don't care what religion they are.
Last year I had to come to Lebanon for my dad's funeral. When I arrived at the airport among the people waiting I saw women with no veil some with veils some had the druze white veil and their little boys running around with the thing on their head, they all looked so beautiful all together I felt like crying. I don't know if it was my father or them or both... Lebanon is just so beautiful not only physically but as a message. Try and go to the web site:
http://thejewsoflebanon.org/me/index.php
and admire our diversity!
Like Gibran K Gibran said "If I had no country and I had to choose one it would be Lebanon" that's exactly how I feel.
Bob, you can find some info on the 100s of thousands of Syrians whom Hariri gave Lebanese citizenship in 1994 (80% of them sunni) on wikipedia, link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lebanon
There are many other places you can google.
Now the numbers vary , depending on the source, between 100 and 500 thousand, (that's why I took the median of 300) but the most "accepted" number is more like 400 thousand.
Many of those guys don't even live in Lebanon (they are in Syria).
Now here let me point to the hypocrisy of some of those who say that Hizbollah had Iranians come to demonstrate, (give me a break)
just imagine what would it be if we had a government that gave 400 thousand Iranians Lebanese citizenship!!
Sam
First the offcial numbers are around 200,000 and out of them 70,000 were christians.
But as an atheist that confessed his utter hate of confessionalism i am surprized that you talk this kind of language!
And by the way they were not all Syrians! there was egyptain, lebanese (without IDs), Palestinians and so on...
they were all living in Lebanon for years and years anyways many files that were deemed suspesious are under investigation by the parlimant. Unfortunatly the parlimant function are currently blocked by Hezbollah...
so for any complaints about the subject ask HA!
anyways that was only one issue you skipped my other questions!
Sam
As u say trust is something we have in our heart and I don’t have it toward HA; u do , so I hope I am wrong and u r right at the end it doesn’t matter and all we want is our beautiful Lebanon to be free and safe for all of us. But just let me tell you Hassan Nassrallah will not be head of HA forever what if he goes??? ……...
Then here is another question for you, why is it so wrong to give the Palestinians living in Lebanon the Lebanese nationality???
You are talking with bob about this subject and I don’t get it why do you find it so horrible and as if it is a crime that Hariri wanted to make by giving them the nationality????
You know my aunt is married to a Palestinian that came to Lebanon when he was 10 years old , so practically (he died in his late 60’s) he lived most of his life in Lebanon and was buried there too. Of course he never had his Lebanese nationality. And their daughters were born and raised in Lebanon but also never had their nationality. And do u know that if u r not Lebanese u can’t have social security and u don’t benefit from anything the government offers, do u know that those cousins of mine teach in a school but if they ever leave they will not be paid their end of work allowance (taawid), neither they get any raise or any privileges the school offers,nor the (retraite) and they are not declared officialy. Is this normal??? They never went to Palestine they have no intention to go there and they consider them selves as Lebanese……this is one example of people I know but I am sure there are many more, and much more interesting even. So where is justice here??? Where is the crime if we give them their nationality?? I believe this is a shame, and disgrace for humanity!!!!
So I really don’t get why you are talking about this subject as if it is sooo big mistake to give them nationality??
Didn't u get the citizenship of the country u live in now???(if you have beeing living for certain years there , if not you will eventually get it after couple of years)
Lily
Lily,
The whole HA top leadership is as clean as Nasrallah (altough not as charismatic). But you can continue to be scared of HA, I don't! I feel more confortable with them than any other party in Lebanon.
Don't get me wrong: unlike many Lebanese I don't make much difference between Lebanese, Palestinians and Syrians, as I said in one of my previous posts it is colonial powers that divided the region into ethnic entities (Lebanon for christians, Palestine for jews...) I'm all for creating a federal system regrouping all of them (including israelis) with everybody having the same rights.
I'm not against giving citizenship for those who want it and many don't. As for the mostly Syrians that were given citizenship in 1994, I have no problem for those who lived in Lebanon all their lives however I'm against giving it for Syrians that almost never lived in Lebanon (many still live in Syria) and were just given citizenship to artificially increase the number of people from one sect or religion.
Bob,
The ones who failed are: Hoss, Karame, Hariri, Siniora.
>>Do you include Hezbollah
Hezbollah never led any government.
>>So whom do you think should rule?
We will let the people choose with an electoral law everybody agrees on.
Hariri and Siniora are responsible for the vast majority of the 40 billion debt, that is a fact: your numbers prove it!
About your 200,000 Syrian naturalized, please provide numbers and sources. (I read so many different ones)
sam
a quick question. How do you know how clean HA top leadership is? Do you know them personally?
what about the electricity scandal of the Dahieh or the international calling centers?
Mind you who is regulating the expenditure of the 100 millions of Iranian money in HA?
and finally you forgot Frangieh and arslan. Now it seems you are only choosing Prime ministers. But if you look closely at the constitution every minister is responsible of his minster. So yes HA did not lead any government but they were responsible of the ministry of power and electricity, for the last year and a half. During that time it lost more than one billions dollars a year. SO i think they should be held responsible.
Another question, let s pretend that HA want to form a government, and they choose one of those you called failed (Hoss or Karameh) will you stand against it and join the opposition (whatever it will be at that time?)
PS: I will get you the official numbers soon.
Peace
>>How do you know how clean HA top leadership is? Do you know them personally?
It is so funny that someone who supports the Hariri team asks this question!!
But to answer your question I know the family of one of them.
>>what about the electricity scandal of the Dahieh or the international calling centers?
Never heard of it.
>>Mind you who is regulating the expenditure of the 100 millions of Iranian money in HA?
I don't know but what does it have to do with anything?
>>and finally you forgot Frangieh and arslan.
If they stole any money (or any other crime): be my guest let the law be applied!
>>HA did not lead any government but they were responsible of the ministry of power and electricity, for the last year and a half. During that time it lost more than one billions dollars a year
where did you find this number?
But to answer the question, if Fneish enriched himself or commited any crime or corruption: be my guest let the law be applied.
>>Another question, let s pretend that HA want to form a government, and they choose one of those you called failed (Hoss or Karameh) will you stand against it and join the opposition (whatever it will be at that time?)
I would be opposed to the choice, but I would give them a one term chance. If they fail I will join the opposition. More than that if things are not going better within 2 years I would prefer they resign even faster.
>> I will get you the official numbers soon.
I wanted to know the source rather than the numbers.
Sam,
Wow, you sure paint a pretty picture of this Nasrallah guy, maybe he is magic after all?
Because it would certainly be a fine trick for the leader of the Lebanese Hezbollah movement to completely do a 180 degree turn from all of the other Hezbollah movements in Saudi Arabia, South America, and Iraq(unofficially referred to by Iranian intelligence) whose main purpose has been carrying out Iran's strategic initiatives through violent bombings, coercion, intimidation, et al.
This is especially exceptional given how much money Lebanon's HA has received over the years. I don't think Iran would like(not much of a return on investment).
Why, it would be like a lone McDonald's restaurant deciding that they instead of selling beef, would only sell vegeburgers to its customers.
Iran won't like this at all, you may want to consider returning to Lebanon to serve as a bodyguard for Hassan against the vengeful Iranians.
Of course, there is the more plausible scenario especially given a quote by Hassan Abbassi, head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard nicknamed the "Fuehrer Mullah":
"The Martyrdom Brigades of the Global Islamic Awakening is controlled by Abbasi. A while back he was heard telling a crowd of Basijis about Iran's secret plans, which include "a strategy drawn up for the DESTRUCTION AND ERADICATION OF THE ENTIRE ANGLO-SAXON CIVILIZATION."(Source: Iran Press News)"
"Zionists" have always been an acceptable target, but how do you feel about HA knowing it receives its funding from Iran which has the goal of also wiping out all your friends in France and Westerners in general?
Now, such a plan to exterminate all those pesky Europeans in the world would first require a conquering of the entire Middle East.
And since Hezbollah groups can be found in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, a good way to achieve the consolidation of the middle east would be to take over these key governments. Saudi Arabia is a long shot, Iraq is still a ways off, but Lebanon looks close doesn't it?
Play this point off however you like, but one of your big gripes is that March 14th is supported by the US and Israel and so does their bidding.
What's so different about HA and Nasrallah (other than that winning "I'm gonna get you sucka" smile of his) who is beholden to Iran and Syria in the same way?
Now to your beleagured talking points:
>All replies ending with: "be my guest let the law be applied!"
-You can't even apply the law to them NOW while they're in the minority.
How do you expect to do it when they're in the majority?
>HA is a resistance movement supported by the vast majority of countries and people (only 4 or 5 countries allied with the terrorist zionist entity consider it terrorist).
-HA is really only supported by Iran and Syria, otherwise all the Arab countries wouldn't be backing Siniora and building up their militaries for a confrontation with Iran.
>Moreover its agenda is purely DEFENSIVE.
-Yeah, they start a war and all they can do is defend themselves(as in their own individual selves hiding amongst civilians) while the country gets bombed.
And as I've said before, if there is no HA with guns, there's no need to have a DEFENSE.
>So people who are giving so much focus to HA just prove that HA is doing the right thing.
-Just like they gave all that attention to all those Nazis and Soviets.
>HA is getting stronger everyday and this is something you can't do anything about.
-If they're getting stronger, why are their crowds shrinking?
>As for me as a Lebanese, I am calling for the Lebanese army to emulate their successful military tactics.
-Again, yeah, they start a war and all they can do is defend themselves(as in their own individual selves hiding amongst civilians) while the country gets bombed.
Can't wait to hear your version of how to play "Checkers" Do the pieces move forward one space and then jump back 10?
>1-Hezbollah even under tufeili didn't try to impose anything on non shiites in the south
-They didn't impose anything on non-Shia because you have to first consolidate your base of power over your own group before going after others.
-Your points of 2- & 3- show attempts at just such a move to consolidate power over the base group, the Shia.
>4- When Hassan Nasrallah took over one of the first things he did was to cease coercing secular shiites, much more than that he OFFICIALLY abandoned the idea of creating a muslim state in Lebanon unless more than 90% of the people wanted one (which is never going to happen) and even his enemies recognize he is a man of his word
(In an interview with a Romanian newspaper Olmert declared 2 days ago that Nasrallah was "the most courageous man on earth").
-He abandoned coercion of secular Shia simply because it wasn't working(as shown in your 2 & 3 comments).
Same reason for abandoning his pursuit of a Muslim state...for now, until he has the power to do so.
The Khomeiniists in the early part of the Iranian '79 Revolution did the exact same thing.
The Revolution was launched by national religionists (muslims seeking a democractic secular Iran). The Khomeiniists supported their movement, berating the corruption and authoritarianism of the former Shah.
Once the purge of all the Shah loyalists was complete, there was no one left to mount an effective opposition. That's when the Khomeiniists made their move and imposed a radical theocratic government.
The National Council for the Resistance of Iran(NCRI), which is a remnant of that original national-religionist movement, was originally organized against the Shah, but when the Khomeiniists seized power, they reorganized to oppose the mullahs.
HA in Lebanon will be no different. Once HA has removed the remaining opposition, they'll impose their will.
And because the Shia only make up around 40-50% of the population of Lebanon, total dominance would seem impossible, right?
Iran is only 50% Persian with ethnic Azeris, Kurds, Arabs, Turkomen, Afghanis, etc. making up the other 50%.
Syria surrounds most of Lebanon and given last year the Allawite religious sect was acknowledged as being a branch of Shiism and no longer heretical by two leading Iranian mullahs at the urging of Ali Khameini, Syria would have an additional reason to see the fullfillment of a fully Shia controlled Lebanon.
As for:
>(In an interview with a Romanian newspaper Olmert declared 2 days ago that Nasrallah was "the most courageous man on earth").
I'm definitely going to need the full source and link of this article to get an idea of the context of this comment.
>5- Nasrallah declared in 2000 when the south was being liberated "Massihiou Lebnan Aayounouna wa kouloubouna" not a single christian received a slap because of Hezbollah (just compare with the 7000 dead christians and 200,000 displaced in the chouf in a similar situation in 1983)
-Why would they want to do anything to put a damper on their celebration of Israel withdrawing? Doing anything would just draw the ire of UN and give Israel a chance to reconsider its actions.
>6- Hassan said "They can kill a thousand Hammoud but we will not respond and we will never use our weapons against any Lebanese" (pretty scary isn't it Lily!) and indeed Hezbollah under his command never did (under previous leadership there were clashes with Amal but never under Hassan).
You need only refer back to Bob's "Next Year at Taboo" post regarding the violence that broke out by the HA backed mob that shut down the Beirut night club "Taboo" to see how fake this declaration is.
Not to mention, you can always just say this guy or that guy is an Israeli, US agent and therefore not truly Lebanese and you've got your loop hole for violence.
And to your:
(pretty scary isn't it Lily!)
Easy for you to say.
She's had to deal with repressive HA members while you've been out living it up in happy go lucky secular France.
I'm not on the ground in Beirut, either, but I know a dangerous situation when I see it.
>7- Hassan's father was a SSNP member (like my father) and as you know this is a totally secular party (do you think he is going to attack his family?).
-There were no reactionary theocratic muslim governments back when Hassan's father was around. Remember, it's called the "'79 Revolution" for a reason.
Not to mention, Nasrallah was declared "supreme guide" Ali Khameini's religious leader in Lebanon back in the mid-1990's.
How's does this reconcile with Hassan's secular status, again?
>(like my father)
Most insightful, your points of view are making more sense now.
>8- Hassan said that he will not rest until his childhood friend Nasim Nisr (who is Jewish) gets out of israeli jails and comes back to his village (the same as Hassan's village) as a free man. Indeed Nassim went into israel to spy for the Lebanese resistance when Lebanon was under occupation and no one cared because "they are just shiites" (tfeh aala hel aalyyeh). Among the other prisoners one is Druze and the other (Yahya Skaff) I'm not sure.
Shebaa is entirely owned by Sunni Lebanese not a single shii.
Does this profile of Hassan correspond to the "fanatical" one that scares you? what does he need to do for you to stopped being scared? I mean he is the most gentle person we ever had in a powerful position, he never abused his power,never ever.
-Fine, throw this "Nasim Nisr" guy in with those rabbi's who attended the Holocaust Conference in Tehran back in December.
So, Hassan knows one Jewish guy, and all the sudden the whole "Death to the Jews" thing is a mute point?
>9- When there was the Danish embassy attack he immediately ordered Hezbollah to limit access to the zone for extremists and help the lebanese army stop the incident. The next day Hassan went to the church in Ashrafieh to express his indignation at the guys who desecrated it.
-More strategy than concern.
If they had joined the chorus of "Death to Denmark" then, it would have hurt their position as politicians in Lebanon and they wouldn't have achieved the political power they have now.
Playing the "friendly" card suited their purposes at the time.
On to the next post: " Copy cat with a twist!"
Sam
Knowing one does not mean that you know all of the others. And support 14 March does not prevent me for criticizing the wrongdoing of the other party. Bytheway I do indulge in slef critic too. But these times are not ripe for that discussion…
The electricity company loses 1 billion dollars every year. And responsibility does not stop at stealing or misappropriating money, but it also include mismanaging and failure to reform. SO fniesh is at leats responsible for not reforming the company.
The dahia , HA main population center south of Beirut, has a large percentage of homes that do not pay electricity, which is one of the reasons of the huge loss incurred by the company every year.
So you give some people a chance (arslan and frangieih) while you deny others! Double standards?
>>Knowing one does not mean that you know all of the others.
Well I read about their actions and even their ennemies recognize they are clean dedicated people.
>>The electricity company loses 1 billion dollars every year.
You still did not give me your source. Where did you get this?
>>Fneish is at leats responsible for not reforming the company.
He took great strategic decisions in the very short time he was in charge.
>>So you give some people a chance (arslan and frangieih) while you deny others!
Not at all, I don't give them any chance. If they commited any crime I want them prosecuted NOW, I already said that above.
Here I want to add that the failure of this government is total not just economical.
It is corrupt, putting Lebanon under foreign tutelage, it failed miserably economically, it failed strategically, it failed politically, it failed militarily, it failed to organize the army to be able to defend the country, it failed judicially (outsourcing the investigations to the FBI) it failed to provide security: huge number of assassinations, some happening in broad day light filmed by close circuit videos, and not a single guy caught!!
(In london which is way bigger they caught the guy that murdered 5 prostitutes within a few weeks.)
Democracy does not exist without accountability (specially when elections are done with an electoral law imposed by foreign powers!).
In response to Sam:
>Well I read about their actions and even their ennemies recognize they are clean dedicated people.
They said the same thing about the Jonestown Cult back in the 1970's, too. And, again, they have the freedom to be "clean dedicated people" because they have a steady flow of free money going to their coffers without having to produce anything (other than wars) for it.
If you've got an allowance of several million a year, don't you think you would be an upstanding citizen, too?
It's how they act when the same economic rules that are applied to everyone else, is applied to them.
This is the ture test of how "clean" and "dedicated" they really are.
>>The electricity company loses 1 billion dollars every year. You still did not give me your source. Where did you get this?
I agree. A source is necessary and so I did a little searching.
I couldn't find a recent reference article to what Bob is referring to since HA took control of the industry, but I did find a very interesting article regarding the electricity utility back in the late summer of 2003.
The article starts off talking about the legacy of corruption the government has in funneling kickbacks to pro-Syrian groups.
It also stated that the practice of free electricity to HA isn't new at all, but has continued for years in the HA strongholds in return for political protection.
AND counter to claims of corruption on behalf of March 14th, Walid Jumblatt was actually a whistle blower on the issue to the Lebanese media.
It also shows how Hariri was pushing for privatization of the government electric utility to ensure better service and an end to the unchecked corruption.
It was the pro-Syrian opposition that opposed such a move and halted the proposal.
So, it turns out that HA hasn't recently squandered a billion all by themselves, but has simply continued a legacy of self-servitude started by their previous Pro-Syrian patrons. So much for "clean," but definitely "dedicated" to helping themselves at the expense of others.
Source: "Middle East Intelligence Bulletin"
http://www.meib.org/articles/0308_l1.htm
>>Fneish is at leats responsible for not reforming the company. He took great strategic decisions in the very short time he was in charge.
The best strategic decision would've been to push forward with privatization of the utility following the successful examples of country's like Chile in the 1970's in the midst of dilapidated nationalized utilities throughout the rest of South America.
Chile took its tattered utilities that were a massive drain on the government budgets, privatized them and has enjoyed successful service for its customers as well as a great source of tax revenues.
Keeping the Lebanese utilities like electricity nationalized only serves the corrupt free electricity recipients like HA.
>>So you give some people a chance (arslan and frangieih) while you deny others! Not at all, I don't give them any chance. If they commited any crime I want them prosecuted NOW, I already said that above.
Again, if you can't even prosecute them now for instigating an unauthorized war with Israel last summer, how can you prosecute them on this? Let alone if they were to attain greater power in government?
>>Here I want to add that the failure of this government is total not just economical. It is corrupt, putting Lebanon under foreign tutelage,
The source of corruption has been outlined as Pro-Syrian in nature(citing the previous article).
Lebanon was previously under the foreign tutelage of Syria (which you didn't seem to mind) and calling US, French, etc. assistance in reestablishing the Lebanonese economy and restoring true relations with the West doesn't make for "foreign tutelage".
I don't know of any US troops on Lebanese soil keeping people down like those of Syria in the past(and present?). And the current UN troops are only there to keep HA from getting trigger happy again in the South.
>>it failed miserably economically,
Are you forgetting that whole HA instigated war that did far more harm to Lebanon's economy across the board than any previous government mismanagement(not to mention the current "paid for by Iran" protests, they don't help the economy either).
>>it failed strategically,
I would agree that it did fail by not seizing on the initial momentum of the Syria troop withdrawal to seek out foreign aid in backing it up militarily, if need be, in the full disarmament of HA.
>>it failed politically,
I agree, it should have said "no militia affiliations allowed" for political candidates in the post-Syria elections.
>>it failed militarily,
Again, Lebanon should've disarmed HA when it had the chance with the full spotlight and support of the international community at the time of the Cedar Revolution.
>>it failed to organize the army to be able to defend the country,
Redundantly yes, they should've organized the army to disarm HA.
>>it failed judicially (outsourcing the investigations to the FBI)
The current investigative ability of Lebanese security is tainted by the possibility of collusion with formerly embedded Pro-Syrian elements who have only recently been dislodged(and possibly still operate in the realm).
>>it failed to provide security: huge number of assassinations, some happening in broad day light filmed by close circuit videos, and not a single guy caught!!
Again, Syria's agents are still present on the ground. Remember the Syrians throwing rocks on the roof tops trying to incite riots at the beginning of the opposition demonstrations.
It's hard to make an arrest when the culprit has already disappeared back across the Syrian border. Or if the perpetrators are members of a "clean" and "dedicated" political group that maintains their status as untouchable thanks to its Iranian provided weapons caches.
>(In london which is way bigger they caught the guy that murdered 5 prostitutes within a few weeks.)
London isn't surrounded by a meddling authoritarian Syrian regime who can make enemies disappear without repercussions.
Not too mention, the killer wasn't an agent for Syria, either.
>>Democracy does not exist without accountability (specially when elections are done with an electoral law imposed by foreign powers!).
I agree, Syria needs to stop assassinating its way to a preferential Lebanese election.
And speaking of corruption and failure, would that not be the result of HA using any newly acquired power to block the Hariri Tribunal from taking place?
That would obviously be corruption, but it wouldn't be a failure, since HA is "dedicated" to succeeding in stopping that Tribunal from taking place which would take down the government of its Syrian patrons.
Slavic Mike,
The terrorist zionist entity instigated war by occupying Lebanon and taking thousands of Lebanese citizens hostage and torturing them in Khiam.
Hezbollah is just responding in kind to free Lebanese citizens in zionist jails.
Hezbollah never instigates war it always responds in kind.
Bob,
>>Man made a social contract after he left the state of nature
Well successive colonial powers and the zionist entity sure didn't!
>>I am sorry but your views are too extreme for me...
Tough luck!
>>sorry sam but no this is not how civilization is built.
Tell that to those occupy us and kidnap our citizens and torture them, not to me.
>>This is not the road to prosperity development or democracy.
Prosperity development or democracy start with freedom from foreign occupation and foreign interference.
You want Peace but forget that peace only comes with justice.
>>i will wait.
You can wait for ever, believe me your way will never never solve anything, look at history and learn...
Sam,
It seems you have, in haste, posted a response to some of Bob's comments on the wrong thread.
You should have put it on the following thread: "Copy cat with a twist!" instead of this one.
I'm going to go ahead and consolidate my responses to your comments here and on the next thread on "Copy cat with a twist!"
See you there
Looks like I know why the new posts for "Copy cat with a twist!" have been done on this thread.
The ability to Post a Comment on "Copy cat with a twist!" has been disabled by Bob.
Whether by accident or on purpose, it does make the point that the hostile rhetoric needs to get toned down a little.
So, instead of my planned comments, I'll take it down a notch and stick to the facts in my response, until Bob says otherwise:
Sam,
>The terrorist zionist entity instigated war by occupying Lebanon and taking thousands of Lebanese citizens hostage and torturing them in Khiam.
I don't know about torture, but wasn't it attacks launched against Israel from Lebanon by Palestinian militants under the command of Yassr Arafat in the early 80's that promted the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon?
Not to mention, isn't that exactly what HA is doing to Lebanon right now? Different group, same occupation?
>Hezbollah is just responding in kind to free Lebanese citizens in zionist jails.
Hezbollah never instigates war it always responds in kind.
Here's two sources (out of numerous ones) that show how often HA "never instigates war":
http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/hezb_00-06.html
(It's an Israeli organization listing attacks since 2000)
And just to show it isn't only "zionists" who are pointing out attacks originating on Lebanon's side of the HA controlled border, here's a 2005 denunciation by the UN:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/sgsm10285.doc.htm
>>>I'm sure you really are a Lebanese guy named Sam living in France.
You are wrong. But this blog is not about me it is about Lebanon.
I'm gonna leave this one alone until tempers cool down.
>I refered to this study because it states that Hezbollah decision making is independant from Syria and Iran (which nullify all your talk about HA being an instrument of Iran or Syria).
I never said Assad and Ahmed Nijad were on cell phones with HA guerillas in South Lebanon telling them which direction to shoot during the summer war.
I'm talking about HA being armed (C-102 Iranian rockets for example), trained, and financed by primarily Iran, and also Syria.
The Near East Policy study didn't go into these factors in regards to HA. It also doesn't need to since Iran, itself, boasts about how it trains, funds, and arms HA.
>The Olmert quote that "Hassan Nasrallah was the most courageous man on earth" was translated and reported to the Yediot Ahronot web site (but was removed after 30 minutes!)
How convenient that you just happened to be on that site during those 30 minutes it was up.
>I read the Near East Policy report very carefully and it said that the Hezbollah forced the ennemy to fight on HA's terms (which nullify's your quote)
It doesn't nullify anything. The conclusion that HA is easily dismantled when the proper military focus and power is applied still stands. The only reason why HA "forced the enemy to fight on HA's terms" was because the IDF didn't take them seriously and will obviously not make the same mistake twice.
>Now Hezbollah is preparing to get even much stronger
There's that "Sam the Pacifist" talk again. And I'm sure you realize the IDF is doing the same by putting the war-hawks back in charge.
>Concerning the tribunal, the inquiry is not over so your quote (prosecution leaking evidence) is wrong.
No, it still stands for the same reason that I cited before of not disclosing information and witnesses that might soon be targeted by the Syrians through its HA proxies.
The systematic assassination of anti-Syrian politicians and reporters over the past two years is proof of this and validates the caution.
The goal is to save lives, not cause more.
>Never ever. Not a single time. You are not well informed or you are disinforming. I defy you to give ONE evidence of that.
Here's TWO (again):
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/sgsm10285.doc.htm
http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/hezb_00-06.html
>Same for your "Death to the jews" quote. I defy you to give me ONE quote of Nasrallah saying that: he never attacks any religion, never ever.
Here he is featured in a music video about "Death to Israel"(part of that ongoing media campaign of there's):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sexukqC61iQ
(I'll admit it's got a beat, but not enough to dance to)
>What I was saying is that for the first time there is a force (HA) that stands up to israel and responds in kind to all its actions. That is fair. If something is fine for the zionists to do than... it is fair for HA (or anyone else) to do to the zionists!
Well, if it is a case of equal tactics, how about HA stop hiding amongst innocent Lebanonese civilians when you launch attacks. And stand and fight away from the civilian populace. The village combat was only successful because the IDF was overly cautious, afraid of the bad press from accidently hitting civilians. HA didn't worry about that at all. If they hit one of their own in a cross fire, whoops, it's ok, they've been martyred.
I don't remember the IDF taking refuge in downtown Haifa when HA's rockets were raining down.
And if, the "professional HA troops" are so good, why not fight them head on like regular army's do?
>Sometime things happen that seem to proove that god exists. You remember when the shuttle exploded with on board the zionist terrorist that had bombed beirut in 1982? it exploded over Palestine, Texas. Now this is what I called poetic justice.
Again, I'll wait until the Post a Comment is reopened on the newest thread before I delve into the mentality of this comment.
Slavic Mike,
>>Looks like I know why the new posts for "Copy cat with a twist!" have been done on this thread.
You understand fast ... but I have to explain things for a long time :-)
>>I don't know about torture, but wasn't it attacks launched against Israel from Lebanon by Palestinian militants under the command of Yassr Arafat in the early 80's that promted the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon?
israel stayed long after Arafat was gone...to the West Bank!
Now about the torture just go to amnesty international archives or just "google 'Khiam prison'"
>>Here's two sources (out of numerous ones) that show how often HA "never instigates war":
>>http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/hezb_00-06.html
I looked at every single attack listed and to the UN declaration
and it proves what I said:
Hezbollah never instigates war it always responds in kind.
If you want I'm ready to talk with you about those listed one by one.
>>I'm talking about HA being armed (C-102 Iranian rockets for example), trained, and financed by primarily Iran, and also Syria.
So? What's the problem? the zionist entity receives 40 times more financial aid from the US and 100 times more weapons including ones prohibited by the Geneva convention.
The Olmert quote that "Hassan Nasrallah was the most courageous man on earth" was translated
and reported to the Yediot Ahronot web site but was actually removed 5 minutes later not 30 minutes
you can write to them and ask them about it, they will confirm it to you.
>I read the Near East Policy report very carefully and it said that the Hezbollah forced the ennemy to fight on HA's terms (which nullify's your quote)
>>It doesn't nullify anything. The conclusion that HA is easily dismantled when the proper military focus and power is applied still stands.
It does apply because it was almost never able to do so precisely because they did not control the situation they were forced to fight on HA's terms: the key word here is "able" and they were not able that's the point. Why do you think Halutz resigned today?
>>There's that "Sam the Pacifist" talk again.
Defending Lebanon is the most pacifist thing to do.
>> not disclosing information and witnesses that might soon be targeted by the Syrians through its HA proxies.
No one is asking the inquiry to disclose the info. The countries that are not cooperating should do so and give the info to the inquiry team.
These are to separate things. Not giving the info to Brammertz when he is asking for it is a cover up of the crime by excellence.
My bet is that it is the zionists that killed Hariri and all the other politicians not Syria. If it is not the case than why not cooperate with the probe.
Here let me remind you that the only ones that have a declared policy of assassinations are the zionists not Syria.
>>Here is featured in a music video about "Death to Israel"
There is never "death to the jews", it is totally different, it is the
difference between saying death to Nazi Germany and death
to the Germans, I'm not comparing the 2 regimes (although both
ideologies are fundamentally racist) I'm just showing you the
difference that you pretendedly don't see.
>>Well, if it is a case of equal tactics, how about HA stop hiding amongst innocent
Lebanese civilians when you launch attacks.
I don't remember HA fighters taking refuge in the southern suburb of Beirut (where
the vast majority of the civilians were killed) only families many of whom support HA
but. nevertheless families, only civilians. If it is OK to hit them it would be OK to hit
the family of any zionist soldier (ie any zionist)!
>>And if, the "professional HA troops" are so good, why not fight them head on like regular army's do?
I didn't understand your question.
Slavic Mike,
>>Looks like I know why the new posts for "Copy cat with a twist!" have been done on this thread.
You understand fast ... but I have to explain things for a long time :-)
>>I don't know about torture, but wasn't it attacks launched against Israel from Lebanon by Palestinian militants under the command of Yassr Arafat in the early 80's that promted the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon?
israel stayed long after Arafat was gone...to the West Bank!
Now about the torture just look in Amnesty's archive or google it.
>>Here's two sources (out of numerous ones) that show how often HA "never instigates war":
>>http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/hezb_00-06.html
I looked at every single attack listed and to the UN declaration
and it proves what I said:
Hezbollah never instigates war it always responds in kind.
If you want I'm ready to talk with you about those listed one by one.
>>I'm talking about HA being armed (C-102 Iranian rockets for example), trained, and financed by primarily Iran, and also Syria.
So? What's the problem? the zionist entity receives 40 times more financial aid from the US and 100 times more weapons including ones prohibited by the Geneva convention.
The Olmert quote that "Hassan Nasrallah was the most courageous man on earth" was translated
and reported to the Yediot Ahronot web site but was actually removed 5 minutes later not 30 minutes
you can write to them and ask them about it, they will confirm it to you.
>I read the Near East Policy report very carefully and it said that the Hezbollah forced the ennemy to fight on HA's terms (which nullify's your quote)
>>It doesn't nullify anything. The conclusion that HA is easily dismantled when the proper military focus and power is applied still stands.
It does apply because it was almost never able to do so precisely because they did not control the situation they were forced to fight on HA's terms: the key word here is "able" and they were not able that's the point. Why do you think Halutz resigned today?
>>There's that "Sam the Pacifist" talk again.
Defending Lebanon is the most pacifist thing to do.
>> not disclosing information and witnesses that might soon be targeted by the Syrians through its HA proxies.
No one is asking the inquiry to disclose the info. The countries that are not cooperating should do so and give the info to the inquiry team.
These are to separate things. Not giving the info to Brammertz when he is asking for it is a cover up of the crime by excellence.
My bet is that it is the zionists that killed Hariri and all the other politicians not Syria. If it is not the case than why not cooperate with the probe.
Here let me remind you that the only ones that have a declared policy of assassinations are the zionists not Syria.
>>Here is featured in a music video about "Death to Israel"
There is never "death to the jews", it is totally different, it is the
difference between saying death to Nazi Germany and death
to the Germans, I'm not comparing the 2 regimes (although both
ideologies are fundamentally racist) I'm just showing you the
difference that you pretendedly don't see.
>>Well, if it is a case of equal tactics, how about HA stop hiding amongst innocent
Lebanese civilians when you launch attacks.
I don't remember HA fighters taking refuge in the southern suburb of Beirut (where
the vast majority of the civilians were killed) only families many of whom support HA
but. nevertheless families, only civilians. If it is OK to hit them it would be OK to hit
the family of any zionist soldier (ie any zionist)!
>>And if, the "professional HA troops" are so good, why not fight them head on like regular army's do?
I didn't understand your question.
Guys I am sorry, I intended to close old threads and consolidate the discussion in the latest one but I screwed up and closed the latest post.
Anyways I apologize and it is now open.
Sam
When you speak about HA not imposing their will on anybody else, I wonder what you consider their security forces “indibate” restricting access to the sit ins and refusing any journalist who does not carry the ID issued by HA! Imagine what will happen if they get hold of power!!!
Lah lah lah Bob, la teghlat!
This is an exceptional situation.
I don't know why it would be so important for a journalist to go secretly inside the sitting area but in a general manner there has to be some security measures; yaani imagine someone with bad intentions, working for a foreign power, comes and does something from the sit in (hurls a hand grenade, a bazooka, a bomb, a missile, who knows what...), just imagine the consequences! It could have very significant ramifications. This would be the last thing we need. Plus I can easily imagine some saying: it is HA's fault they should have known better and taken some basic security precautions!
Mieux vaut prevenir que guerir.
If they get a hold on power I think Lebanon would very soon become a real country with a real army (that can protect the country), deconfessionalization of the political system, corruption would drastically diminish. However I think economicaly it would not be easy because they would feel the need to please their base (that is rather poor) which would make it difficult to take needed measures such as diminishing the number of civil servants (I think we have twice more than we need) which is part of the reason for our deficits, or nationalising some of our public sector...
We would still have problems but I think they would be in the realm of the acceptable/normal. Lebanon would become the best place in the Middle East I have no doubt: Lebanon has everything, beautiful country, smart educated people, incredible talent, the will to succeed... all we need is dedicated clean people in power, people who care about the country not feodal clanic nomenclatura sectarian freaks sitting there and filling their pockets.
I'm optimistic, Lebanon with all its diversity will prevail.
>You understand fast ... but I have to explain things for a long time :-)
Oh, I'll try to keep up, but it gets rather difficult given how many times you contradict yourself (Sam the "Religious Secular Atheist"?).
So, let's dive into this laundry list...
>israel stayed long after Arafat was gone...to the West Bank!
So did the Syrians and Iranian backed groups/agents.
And as the 4,000+ rockets fired from Southern Lebanon in the Israel-HA war showed, Southern Lebanon has a desirable elevation and geographical concealment that makes attacking Israel quite effective.
The IDF new that withdrawing meant a constant rocket barrage by HA, Syrian, Iran, etc.
>Now about the torture just go to amnesty international archives or just "google 'Khiam prison'"
Reading up on the subject, this passage jumped out at me:
"Detainees also suffered from the knowledge that they were being held as hostage as part of the trade in human beings or their remains in which Israel, Hizbullah and others have engaged, a situation which continues to this day - only yesterday the Israeli Supreme Court was hearing the case of two prominent Lebanese detainees held in Israel openly as "bargaining chips" to find out the fate of Israeli soldiers missing in Lebanon."
It implies HA played the same game of torture and sedition.
>I looked at every single attack listed and to the UN declaration
and it proves what I said:
Hezbollah never instigates war it always responds in kind.
If you want I'm ready to talk with you about those listed one by one.
Well, as much as I'd like to get into a tit-for-tat on each event that you'll say this HA attack on this day in 2005 was for this IDF attack on this day in 2004 which was launched by the IDF in retaliation for this HA attack in 2003 and back and forth to prior to the creation of HA going back to the Olympic attacks in Munich, Germany and even farther back involving future members of HA.
>So? What's the problem? the zionist entity receives 40 times more financial aid from the US and 100 times more weapons including ones prohibited by the Geneva convention.
The problem is, the US/Israel weapons are used in operations meant to maintain peace and the HA/Syria/Iran ones are used to create massive unrest and violence.
You still can't seem to understand that if HA never abducted those Israeli soldiers, knowing full well they would get a violent reaction based on how Israel reacted to the abduction of another soldier in the Palestinian territories, Israel would've had no reason to attack Lebanon.
>The Olmert quote that "Hassan Nasrallah was the most courageous man on earth" was translated
and reported to the Yediot Ahronot web site but was actually removed 5 minutes later not 30 minutes
you can write to them and ask them about it, they will confirm it to you.
For starters, you're doing your "contradiction dance" again.
You're the one who first said 30 instead of 5 and I'll go ahead and contact them to find out if it actually happened like you said and the context of the quote.
>It does apply because it was almost never able to do so precisely because they did not control the situation they were forced to fight on HA's terms: the key word here is "able" and they were not able that's the point. Why do you think Halutz resigned today?
Again, it totally applies. If the IDF had taken HA seriously, they would've just dropped a bomb instead of sending in troops.
HA's actions in the Israel-HA summer war have now given the IDF a blank check in how to deal with wiping out HA.
They tried the "humane war tactics" approach of dropping leaflets, avoiding civilian areas despite information of HA targets residing there, and HA exploited them.
Now, when HA starts up again, the IDF will just obliterate wherever HA's at, now knowing the consequences of attacking at less than full force.
Tactically, if HA was smart, they would've waited for a much larger military objective (other than not being totally wiped out in the Israel-HA summer war) to take advantage of the IDF's ignorance to HA's ability.
That advantage has now been squandered. And nobody's going to fall for it again and will "seek out and destroy" instead of "seek out and annoy"
>>>There's that "Sam the Pacifist" talk again. Defending Lebanon is the most pacifist thing to do.
Bob & Company are defending Lebanon, you're the one destroying it.
>No one is asking the inquiry to disclose the info. The countries that are not cooperating should do so and give the info to the inquiry team.
These are to separate things. Not giving the info to Brammertz when he is asking for it is a cover up of the crime by excellence.
My bet is that it is the zionists that killed Hariri and all the other politicians not Syria. If it is not the case than why not cooperate with the probe.
Given the history of scandals such as the massive "Oil For Food" debacle, disasterous handling of the post military contractor presence by UN troops in Sierra Leone, and the fact that the much of the UN's Human Rights Council/Commission is made up of some of the world's worst Human Rights abusers such as China, probably doesn't give Israel a lot of confidence in the security of the information disclosed solely to the UN not finding its way to Syrian agents.
And given the fact they have key members of the Syrian regime on tape making the overt death threats to Hariri, you "zionist" murderer scenario doesn't hold much weight.
>Here let me remind you that the only ones that have a declared policy of assassinations are the zionists not Syria.
Syria wiped out an entire city and the people living inside it in its western territory to send a message that it would destroy the Muslim Brotherhood and any of its supporters.
Being a member of the Muslim Brotherhood is still an automatic death sentence in Syria.
Iran actively partakes in the targeted assassinations of Iranian dissident groups mostly in Europe.
Who cares if they formally declare it? Doesn't keep them from doing it.
>There is never "death to the jews", it is totally different, it is the
difference between saying death to Nazi Germany and death
to the Germans, I'm not comparing the 2 regimes (although both
ideologies are fundamentally racist) I'm just showing you the
difference that you pretendedly don't see.
That's more of your convenient word play. Hitler used the same kind of semantics in his quest to wipe out Slavics, except he referred to them as the "Slave Class".
Tell yourself whatever you want, you're still on board with a movement that seeks to kill over 6 million people.
>>>Well, if it is a case of equal tactics, how about HA stop hiding amongst innocent Lebanese civilians when you launch attacks.
I don't remember HA fighters taking refuge in the southern suburb of Beirut (where the vast majority of the civilians were killed) only families many of whom support HA but. nevertheless families, only civilians. If it is OK to hit them it would be OK to hit the family of any zionist soldier (ie any zionist)!
The targets in South Lebanon were the 8 key buildings of HA's financial apperatus (6-7 of the 8 were successfully destroyed by the IDF). They gave warning in advance for civilians to clear out.
But your friends over at "Amnesty International" cited HA for PURPOSEFULLY targeting civilians as where the IDF casualties were seen as "collateral damage" and not the focus of the attacks:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020262006
Both HA and the IDF were cited for war crimes. But given the fact that HA started the conflict, puts the bulk of the violations on their end.
>>And if, the "professional HA troops" are so good, why not fight them head on like regular army's do?
I didn't understand your question.
It means send your HA pro troops out into deserted areas in South Lebanon, not hiding behind civilians living in villages and fight it out. If HA is as tough and strong as you claim they are, this shouldn't be a problem.
That is unless you're willing to admit HA's obvious inferiority in such a matchup.
>This is an exceptional situation.
I don't know why it would be so important for a journalist to go secretly inside the sitting area but in a general manner there has to be some security measures; yaani imagine someone with bad intentions, working for a foreign power, comes and does something from the sit in (hurls a hand grenade, a bazooka, a bomb, a missile, who knows what...), just imagine the consequences! It could have very significant ramifications
This is my exact argument on why various countries won't disclose fully to the UN run Hariri Tribunal, but for some reason it's ok in your situation...an "exceptional situation" indeed.
Besides, HA friendly factions get to do the very same in petition March 14th factions, hey, you're presence on this blog is proof of that, Sam.
>However I think economicaly it would not be easy because they would feel the need to please their base (that is rather poor) which would make it difficult to take needed measures
>That sounds like a group in power looking out for its own sect. I thought HA was going to bring an end to this, not further propagation and corruption.
>such as diminishing the number of civil servants (I think we have twice more than we need) which is part of the reason for our deficits, or nationalising some of our public sector...
["privatizing" is what I assume you mean when you say "nationalising some of our public sector..." Since "nationalizing" and "public sector" are the same thing]
I already showed you that HA has absolutely no intention of privatizing publicly held utilities and other holdings.
Doing so would increase the burden on their poor base who currently get things like electricity absolutely free.
Already the cracks are showing in the hypothetical economics of HA.
>We would still have problems but I think they would be in the realm of the acceptable/normal. Lebanon would become the best place in the Middle East I have no doubt: Lebanon has everything, beautiful country, smart educated people, incredible talent, the will to succeed... all we need is dedicated clean people in power, people who care about the country not feodal clanic nomenclatura sectarian freaks sitting there and filling their pockets.
You had that in the onset of the Cedar Revolution prior to HA and Syria kicking their terror from the shadows campaigns into high gear.
>I'm optimistic, Lebanon with all its diversity will prevail.
One second you're talking VENGEANCE and the next your talking OPTIMISM. One should be vary of someone who can so easily wear two completely different masks at once.
And you still haven't figured out how the HA economy will recover from the massive losses in tourism from Europe & Arab countries along with the sanctions and isolation that would surely follow the ascension of an Iranian proxy government to power.
Slavic Mike,
>> If HA is as tough and strong as you claim they are
I'm not the one claiming it, the beaten zionist army is saying it.
You can play on words all you want the fact is HA is a defensive force in nature, it has no plans to attack any of the "48 territories" except when responding in kind when Lebanon is attacked. As for the abducted soldiers they will only be returned when the last Lebanese citizen is freed from zionist jails. When israel started kidnapping thousands of Lebanese citizens for no reason, HA didn't even exist!
I'm not HA but I feel compelled to restore some truth when I read so much deformation of facts.
Plus you still didn't tell me why whatever the subject Bob puts out there you have to attack Hezbollah, why are you so obsessed with HA?
Sam,
>I'm not the one claiming it, the beaten Zionist army is saying it.
That has to do with Israel's definition of "victory": complete destruction of HA which was impossible given the initial IDF strategy and HA's ability to hideout in Syria (as some of its members have continued to do).
But, in comparing destruction brought upon Israel by HA versus the destruction brought upon Lebanon by Israel, I don't think I'd say HA "won".
They simply survived to fight another day. Which to HA, meant "winning". I'm not looking forward to what Lebanon will look like in HA's definition of a "defeat".
Oh, wait, you've already described what that looks like: March 14th peacefully running the government, tourism and the overall Lebanese economy flourishing.
>You can play on words all you want the fact is HA is a defensive force in nature, it has no plans to attack any of the "48 territories" except when responding in kind when Lebanon is attacked.
You seem to be doing the majority of the "word play" around here.
The problem is always Lebanon's definition of being "attacked".
For example, HA is currently training and arming Hamas for an upcoming battle with the IDF and the Fatah forces of Palestine.
Now, HA may see no harm in it, but IDF probably views that as an initial "attack" and they may do someting about it. And any IDF action taken will be viewed as an unprovoked attack by IDF when IDF will consider it a "counter attack"
>As for the abducted soldiers they will only be returned when the last Lebanese citizen is freed from Zionist jails. When Israel started kidnapping thousands of Lebanese citizens for no reason, HA didn't even exist!
I believe Israel should release those who were simply civilians, but since HA wears no uniform and likes to hide in crowds, it is very difficult to know which is which.
Not to mention the friendly guy you know as harmless, may have been the same guy firing rockets into Israel to day before.
If HA would just go and get a standard military uniform and ranking system already, such cases of mistaken identity would be far less common.
But then again, they couldn't hide amongst civilians in search of shelter so easily anymore.
>I'm not HA but I feel compelled to restore some truth when I read so much deformation of facts.
I am far from IDF or Israeli, but I too feel compelled to restore some truth when I read so much deformation of facts.
>Plus you still didn't tell me why whatever the subject Bob puts out there you have to attack Hezbollah, why are you so obsessed with HA?
That's because every post Bob has put up lately is in some way about HA disrupting Lebanon's future.
And from a historical perspective, HA attempt at ascendancy to power is the same as many other authoritarian power grabs.
They use the poor as their tool, proclaim that they will be the elixir to the current government's misdeeds and failures, and once they get into office, they become far worse, more corrupt, and more controlling than the government they've just replaced.
HA and their ilk seem to always accomplish this feat by never becoming questioned every step of the way as do normal politicians seeking power.
HA needs to be up front about their vision for Lebanon's future, and allow it to be criticized just as all other's are.
But instead, they produce nothing of their plans, which makes them all the more suspect, not to mention their currently established history of corruption(accepting massive funding from countries with damaging plans for Lebanon), pandering to their own sect(free electricity and other utilities for HA supporters at the expense of others), and even assassinations(look on the newest post for this “Crying Wolf”).
Hezbollah is the biggest, most democratic, and most representative party in Lebanese history.
Sam,
>Hezbollah is the biggest, most democratic, and most representative party in Lebanese history.
This is true IF you define democracy as
-STARTING WARS WITH NEIGHBORS, that had recently(last 5-6 years) been peaceful with the overall Lebanonese populace.
-ABIDING BY THE VISIONS OF FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS by accepting massive funding from the government of Iran and Syria(to a lesser degree) in return for carrying out their proxy war against the West and Israel.
-KILLING OFF POLITICAL OPPOSITION
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244002,00.html
(middle-end of article pertaining to HA's involvment in the most recent high level assassination of a Lebanese political figure.
-PUTTING THE DESIRES OF THEIR OWN BEFORE THE ENTIRE POPULATION
HA's history for years of maneuvering to provide free electricity and other services at the expense of non-HA supporters.
-STRANGLING THE ECONOMY
If causing a war wasn't enough, the HA is currently involved in the orchestrating of practice of economically paralyzing street protests, reminiscent of Andrés Manuel López Obrador's, former Mexican presidential candidate, failed attempt at toppling the Mexican government to seize control by crippling the downtown Mexico City through road blocks, side walk camps, etc.
-DESTROYING TOURISM
HA's efforts to shut down popular tourists draws such as downtown Beirut's night clubs, along with it's obedience to the wishes of global pariah Iran, risk scaring off would be tourists from Europe and Arab countries, fearful of Tehran's reach and tendency for mayhem abroad.
-WHAT ELSE?
Can't quite say since HA doesn't respond to inquiries about its full plans on how to run the government in a way that will be beneficial to the entire Lebanese population while also providing free services at the expense of others to its poor constituency(not likely to be possible under any economic model).
With the mainstream press black out imposed by HA within its protests circles, it is also hard to get a clue of the true motives of the HA Occupation's participants and what they have already been given and promised for their role in the protests.
Post a Comment