Friday, December 29, 2006
Parallel fates?
Since the late 60’s it seems that the fates of the Lebanese and Palestinian people have been intertwined, for good or for ill. Recently political developments between the two states have been strikingly similar…
Currently, in Palestine there are two main political factions, Fateh and Hamas. Fateh is a moderate, secular party that is calling for a peace settlement of the Palestinian problem and western like democratic development. On the other hand, Hamas is a religious, extremist faction that preaches a never-ending war with Israel. The West supports the first, while Iran and Syria are backing the second.
In Lebanon there is a similar division, between March 14, a moderate, democratic and peaceful coalition supported by most Arab states and the west; and Hezbollah, an extremist, religious and militant party supported by Iran and Syria, with a declared aim to continue its armed struggle against Israel.
Additionally, during this last summer, Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldiers and Israel retaliated, destroying bridges, homes and roads, blockading the whole Gaza strip. A few weeks later Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and Israel predictably retaliated, also destroying bridges, homes and roads, and blockading Lebanon.
Recently Hamas have been also clamoring for a national unity government, and refused to accept any early parliamentary and presidential elections. The situation in Lebanon is the similar, but with the single difference, that 14 March coalition controls the government, while Hezbollah hold the presidency, in Palestine it is the opposite.
At the moment, Hezbollah and 14 March are calling for early election, but they differ on the order. Hezbollah wants to hold parliamentary elections first them presidential, while 14 march want the opposite.
What makes this comparison daunting is the eruption of a small-scale civil war in Gaza, between Hamas and Fateh. If the current parallelism continues -I fervently hope not- then we should witness similar events in Lebanon in the next few weeks…
Finally, It seems that lately I have not been able to find any cheerful news to write about, but in an effort to end this article on a bright note, I can claim that throughout history no two cases are exactly similar. So hopefully, Lebanon will not be subject to any internal strife...
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26 comments :
I think the 14 march need to make peace with israel, and create front against syria and iran.
I don't undertand why we are in war all the time, we have to respect each other and to learn from the history.
we, the israelis, have a lot to learn from you, and yoyu have a lot to learn from us, why are we fighting all the time...what israel diffrent than syria or iran, that is fine to fight against israel and wrong to fight against those countries? why its O.K. to be ally with syria and iran and its wrong to be ally with israel? look at Jorden and Egypt, they enjoy from the peace, relation with the west, money from U.S...and te most importent, we are neighboors- there is a lot of things that we can do together for the environment, for the future, for lebanon and israel, why don't we stage our power to good purposes?
I know that israel make a lot of damage to lebanon, but lebanon hurt in israel not once too...lets forget from the past and start to be allies.
Good comparison (I would also add Iraq) I agree with it except that ... I draw the opposite conclusion!
I think that the right choice is the one made by Hamas, Hezbollah, the iraqi resistance, Syria, Iran and Afghanistan!
Of course the end game is to have peace not war but not at any cost. My point is that it is Israel that doesn't want a just peace, it wants a total surrender under the title of peace. The palestinians signed peace and what do they get: a tripling of the settlers in the west bank and Gaza!
I really do not want to become like Egypt and even less Jordan controlled by despotic undemocratic pro western government that are leading their people to a previsible economical and sociological catastrophy it is just a question of time.
On the other hand Iran is much more democratic and is witnessing an economical and technological boom even Syria is going on the same path, Lebanon is not far behind and in Iraq it is only a question of time. In Palestine it would be the case if the Israelis were not totally asphyxiating their economy and finances.
It is erroneous to think that we don't want peace, it is ISAREL that does not want peace. What is Lebanon asking for? Shebaa farm and a map of the mines (How shoking!), but Israel won't give it back. What is Syria asking for? The occupied golan heights (How shoking!) but Israel won't give it back. What is the Hamas government in Palestine asking for? The application of UN resolutions so they can establish a state on the international recognised borders (How shoking!) but Israel won't give it back. What is Iran asking for? the right for development and peacful technology (How shoking!) but they have been threatened and attaked since their revolution in 1979, Irak tried the american promises but do they have with them: first Saddam supported by the US and then war death and destruction...
Bashir Gemayel was trying to make peace in 1982 but M. Begin came up with all sorts of humiliating conditions Bashir or any true Lebanese patriot could have never accepted (Bases against Syria, no strong Lebanese army...).
Yes Bob your remark is right but the choice is not between development or war but between submission, humiliation on one hand and true independance, freedom and development on the other: that is exactly why I support Hezbollah in particular and the anti US domination opposition in general!
First why do you all the time connect palestine to lebanon???
iran is democratic??? where are you live? to arrest woman because she taked a part in porn movie its democracy??? to arrest people because they against the regime is democracy???
"What is Lebanon asking for? Shebaa farm and a map of the mines (How shoking!)"
we don't care about Shaba Farms, nobody live there. according to the U.N Shaba Farms is an syrian land, but nobody care to give you this land, but of course we want an agreement that hezbolla will stop shooting on our towns and snitch our soldiers...Olmert even called to Seniora to make peace, but Seniora refuse.
in 2000 when Ehud Barak wanted to live lebanon, a lot of people warned him that without agreemant hezbolla will keep shooting on us, I thought that they are some facist that care only for more land, but they are rights. yesterday its Shaba Farms, tomarrow it is the Galil, one side withdrawal is a mistake, because people see this as defeat, and think that if they keep "Resist to the zionist" they will free all palestine. we are not so stupid to do this again...
"What is Syria asking for? The occupied golan heights (How shoking!) but Israel won't give it back."
in this subject I agree with you, I think that we sould make peace with syria, the real distribution is about the lake that syria want it and this is the only water source of israel...but again, we talk on lebanon not on syria.
"What is the Hamas government in Palestine asking for? The application of UN resolutions so they can establish a state on the international recognised borders (How shoking!) but Israel won't give it back"
I have news to you, hamas asking to destroy israel, all of israel not only the west bank, all of israel, they even don't reconize in our state, the most moderate offer is to make "Hudan"- you probably know what "Hudna" means, you will stop fire on us, while we equip with guns, and another 10 years, when we will be strong enough, we will kill you...thanks a lot..we gave the palestinians Gaza, and they shoot on us insted of talk, snitch one israeli soldiers and keep shooting on our cities, even now in the "cease-fire" they keep shooting Kassams on Sderot. at least 10 in one day.
when did israel atack iran? I only hear some insane leader that talk on wipe me from my country and than he want an nuclear weapon, what would you do??
I want peace with lebanon, all of my freinds and my family want peace with lebanon...that it..and I realy don't care from this hezbolla because I know that many hates them in lebanon and want peace too.
if you support hezbolla so it is you that dont want peace.
that is you that want to attack israel because palestine...what paletine mean to you, a Lebanese citizen?? they make troubles in your country like israel and even more, why to be an palestine ally is more accepted than be israeli ally???
"in 2000 when Ehud Barak wanted to live lebanon"
I mean leave***
>>First why do you all the time
>>connect palestine to lebanon?
All the region is connected not just Lebanon and Palestine.
>>iran is democratic??
Yes it is. People are elected on local and national levels.
Is it perfect: no, far from it, but they sure went a long way in such a short time.
As for the porn acting been banned in Iran that is a question of laws.
Every country has its own laws that reflect the situation at a certain time that has nothing to do with democracy.
>> we don't care about Shaba Farms, nobody live there.
Cool, than why don't you leave it and solve the problem.
>> we want an agreement that hezbolla will stop shooting on our towns
Hezbollah only shot on your towns as retaliation when your soldiers were shooting on our towns.
>> yesterday its Shaba Farms, tomarrow it is the Galil
No, the Lebanese all said they will stop at Shebaa farms.
the Galil is your problem with the Palestinians it is not our problem.
>>in this subject I agree with
>>you, I think that we sould make
>>peace with syria,the real
>>distribution is about the lake
>>that syria want it and this is
>>the only water source of israel
You always have a good to occupy other peoples' lands. It just doesn't work.
>> I have news to you, hamas
>>asking to destroy israel,
>>all of israel not only the west
>>bank, all of israel, they
>>even don't reconize in our
>>state, the most moderate offer
>>is to make "Hudna" means
False, Hamas is not asking to destroy israel. It doesn't recognise it but it doesn't mean they want to attack it, they are only asking to apply UN resolutions so they can establish a state on the international recognised borders.
>> when did israel atack iran?
>>I only hear some insane leader
>>that talk on wipe me from my
>>country and than he want an
>>nuclear weapon,
>>what would you do??
The US and the israeli lobby has attacked Iran since their revolution in 1979
Their leader said that god (not Iran) will wipe israel from the map just as the USSR
was wiped off the map. That does not mean killing israelis that means taking out the
zionist regime in place just like appartheid was taken out in South Africa. When the
USSR fell no one killed russians when appartheid ended no one killed whites in South Africa. What I would do? create a country where every Palestinian who wants it can return to his country and where every citizen has the same rights regardless of religion, that is called justice!
>>I want peace with lebanon, all
>>of my freinds and my family want
>>peace with lebanon...
I believe you. I think most israelis want peace but they are afraid of the future and this
fear stands in the way of them taking the right decisions. Unfortunetly the future can
not be built on fear. As I consider israel as a philosophical enemy there is no hate in
my heart, just pain. I have nothing against jews (all the opposite) but I will never accept
injustice. Believe it or not I suffer for you. Part of the blame hangs on us (us Arabs) because we failed to instaure some trust to help you take the "right decisions", we haven't had the required leadership either.
>>if you support hezbolla so it is
>>you that dont want peace.
Wrong my friend. I support Hezbollah because it fought occupation and does not give in
to israeli blackmail, period. We all want peace but peace comes only with justice and
respect not occupation, brutality and violence. Hezbollah never criticises jews only zionists.
>>what palestine mean to you, a
>>Lebanese citizen?
>> they make troubles in your
>>country like israel and even more
For one I make a clear distinction between the awful leaders of the PLO and their corrupt organisation
which I abhore and the Palestinian cause which I totally support.
So its a problem...because I am zionist, all of my country are zionist too...I don't call to myself zionist,or jew (I'm atheist)I call myself israeli, but yes I'm zionist too...you full of lies that hezbolla put in your brain for years, israel left lebanon according to the U.N. border. they just can't accept us living here.
for me they are radicals, and you can't make peace with radicals...there is radicals people in israel too, and I hate them like I hate my enemies. but I know that my govermant isn't extremist, and they respent my opinion...you will get back Shaba Farms but not with war, with peace.
like you said, war only give reason to the extremist.
now the right in israel is rising again, because of the war, this is their air to breath, the hate, the fear- like you said.
but hezbolla do that too, they don't want peace with israel, if someone talk with israel he is consider to a traitor, they started the war and this is a fact. in the 12 of july they kindaped israeli soldiers and shoot on israeli towns in purpose to hurt people because they are israelis, this is act of war...and we react to this war...but it isn't matter who start this and who is right and who is wrong, this is the past.
let me ask you a question if now olmert call to senira and tell him that he wants peace, israel will give you Shaba Farms, and you disarmed hezbolla do you support seniora in such a move, or you still think that only in power you can bring back this land.
and another question, why hezbollla didn't fought with syria about the 1000 prisoners in the syrian jails???
Sam,
You make it difficult to argue, simply because everytime someone puts together a cohesive, well referenced answer, you side step it and go in another direction.
You've got a lot of Hezbollah in you that way. But just because the white rabbit is elusive does not mean it won't eventually be caught.
For what it's worth, I'll touch on a few points before going into the main thrust of my argument.
-For starters, why connect Lebanon and Palestine?
Same reason Iran & Syria do. To keep their followers' anger focused on foreigners instead of the corrupt rulers of the lands they, themselves, reside in.
-If it isn't Shebaa Farms, it'll be something else. Shebaa didn't become an issue until after the 2000 Israeli withdrawal when HA had to grasp at straws to come up with a purpose to stay armed and keep its followers fired up. (No, I didn't forget about Iranian Democracy, saving that for last).
-If HA would just disarm, then Israel couldn't have an excuse to fire back at HA in the first place.
-Stop at Shebaa Farms? If that's true, then why don't you trade HA's disarmament for Shebaa and your discourse with Israel will finally be over.
-On the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights, Gaza, etc. issue, it has more to do with its geographical location than just a land grab. The areas have a high elevation which makes them perfect for lobbing mortars into nearby Israeli towns and cities.
-Given that the claim on the land and its lake goes back thousands of years(and hundreds of maps), that'll be an interesting one to define boundaries on. But I would recommend using sustained peace as a bargaining chip for either side.
-Hamas not wanting to destroy Israel? That's a big 10'4 on the False Meter, it's been months since I've seen it written anywhere, but I have seen it spoken/written by a Hamas member.
And even if they don't, they're new landlords in Tehran sure do.
Not to mention their propagation of the whole Jews being decended from "dirty apes and guerillas" mythology instead of the same divine origins as everyone else subscribes to doesn't support that "nice guy" image you keep trying to fly up the flag pole.
-What do you, Sam, a Lebanese citizen care about Palesitian affairs? Hmmm...sounds familiar, except it was you saying that to me, and I believe your claim was that my opinion didn't matter because I didn't vote in said country, so I'd say cross apply that same argument here, if you like.
-Now on to Iran and the main thrust of my argument:
Sam, you talk and you just start to make semi-cohesive points, and then you throw out a barb like "Iran is democratic."
For starters, "supreme guide" Ali Khomeini holds 75% of the power in Iran and the closest thing they have to checks and balances for him is the Council of Experts which is elected from a very short list approved by the Guardian Council of who is allowed to run in the first place.
This is about as intransigent as it gets as far as keeping the people completely out of the loop.
As far as those general elections you cited, the results were supposed to be all done on a Monday, but ended up taking a full week.
And here's where it gets even funnier, when the ballot boxes that were missing for that week arrived, the seals had already been broken, and throughout the whole process it was the Basij (president Ahmen Nijad's personal militia--sound familiar?) was the only one allowed to guard the ballots instead of the used up until that point, regular Iranian police.
Even the so-called reformers are crooked human rights abusers, but they're like the "Lite Beer" version to Ahmen Nijad's grooup of thugs.
If you really want to know how "democratic" they are in Iran, I suggest you peruse:
http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/
For daily updates on all the "democratic" secret prisons, protests, riots, persecutions, etc.
And for in depth articles on particular subjects, especially how truly devasted the Iranian economy is under the rule of the mullahs, I suggest taking a gander at:
http://www.iran-press-service.com/index.shtml
As far as Syria, over 40 years of a "state of emergency" seems to be just the tip of the iceberg of how "wonderful" it is to live there. You may want to check out an article on the Reform Party of Syria site:
http://www.reformsyria.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=200&Itemid=60
A warning though, it's run by Syrian ex-patriates out of Washington, D.C., so it's gotta be just another US puppet organization.
The real tip-off is the fact that their slogan reads: "Freedom - Democracy - Peace" this is how you know it can't be legitimate, since what Syrian citizen would want any of those silly things?
By the way, how'd Assad do in the last election?
Oh, wait, they didn't have one. I forgot he's ruler for life just like his pappy. At least in an authoritarian state like Egypt, the opposition can at least hold an occasional press conference without receiving a wicked physical beating.
Which brings me to the overwhelming motive of my blogging here as a US citizen interested in Lebanese affairs(plus other regions) along with the utter befuddlement with your arguments against March 14th.
In my own opinion, as I've been able to piece together from various news sources along with reading in between the lines, there's a three prong attack coming against the Iranian regime in the coming months.
The goal is regime change from within with the politcal and monetary aid of the West.
Prong One - The UN is raising the issue of human rights in Iran with resolutions and possible sanctions coming soon. Sanctions don't really mean anything. Just shining the world's collective eye on the massive and consistant abuses will be all that's needed to really rile up the Iranian people against the regime(even moreso than they already are).
Prong Two - The high court of the EU just unfroze the monetary assets of the PMOI(People's Muhjadeen of Iran) and is pushing for a full delisting of their group from the EU terrosist watch list(along with similar efforts in the US).
Who are they? They were one of the main opposition groups to the Shah, and after the '79 revolution was hijacked by the fundamentalists away from the democracy seekers (this is one of the historical references to back up my overwhelming skepticism in any government under HA & company turning out to be legitimately democractic).
Upon the ascension of Khomeini to power with his reactionary policies, the PMOI, in 1981, again took up the resistance effort, now against the mullahs.
They've had many of their members assassinated by the regime over the past few decades, and continue to be a major threat because of how imbedded they still are in Iran.
The PMOI(or MEK) is the group that revealed the mullah's nuclear program in 2002 that dated back to the 80's. And along with providing intelligence to the West ever since, they also have experience in guerrilla warfare much the same as HA, except this group wants to help create a secular democracy, not destroy it.
This group along with the Iranian Kurds in the northwest, groups in the Arab minority in the southeast of Iran, and various other pro-democracy, and human rights groups, are being assisted in their efforts for internal regime change.
Prong Three (the coup de gratis) Saudi Arabia finally seeing the need to step in following the completion of their own version of the Iraq Study Group, are planning to dramatically increase their oil output to such an extent that it would quickly bankrupt Iran and render it an economic catastrophe providing the cover for Prong One and Prong Two to come together to initiate a successful internal regime change.
The recent buildup of additional US and British naval vessels in Persian Gulf are most likely there to provide a defensive shield against any Iranian missile attack on Saudi oil fields.
Now given this plan of action, or any of these variables combined with other yet to be discovered plans, pretty much confirms that the policy of appeasement is over and the mullah's time in Iran is running out quickly.
They know it and that's why their pursuit of "nuclear power" is so alarming. A recent study concluded that their oil infrastructure is so dilapidated that they need a direct infusion of $2.5 billion into their oil industry for repairs just to upgrade to the status of maintaining its current operational needs(not even taking into account what it needs to do to last for another year or two).
Now you could point to this as justification of their need for legitimate nuclear power, especially since 70% of their economy is dependent on their oil exports.
But they can't eat or drink uranium. They can't use the electricity generated as a form of medicine.
With the level of handouts and social welfare where 90% of the country lives in poverty ($55 a month is the average wage), energy is not their main expense.
And because all of their neighbors in the Middle East and Russia have their own energy supplies through oil, and Europe has 50 of its own nuclear power plants, there's no sale of Iranian electricity to be had to make up for the 70% of Iran's income that comes from oil.
The massive inflation, unemployment, etc. going completely ignored within Iran by their government and the spending of money like there's no tomorrow on militias in Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Bahrain, Somalia, etc. coupled with Ahmen Nijad's statements that the 12th Imam will be returning in '07(only possible after a catastrophic war in Ahmen Nijad's eyes) all points to this guy and his key supporters have already decided to start "drinking the cool aid" for a one way trip.
My interest in Lebanon, other than just pure curiousity about another country which I'd like to visit under happier conditions, is to see if it's possible in some way to put my energy grouped with those of like mind who don't want history to remember Lebanon as the launch site of the nuclear bomb that wiped out Israel and led to World War III.
A disarmed HA means Iran loses a strategic front. It can no longer tug on Nasrallah's leash and get him to start trouble to distract the world when the heat gets turned up on Tehran. Remember that the Israeli-HA war kicked off right at the start of the G8 summit when the main topic of discussion was what to do about Iran's nuke program.
Nothing got discussed because everyone was too busy trying to figure out how to deal with the sudden and unexpected war.
Not having their "Artillery Alley" open means a swifter and far less bloody putting down of
the 1# state sponsor of terrorism throughout the world, freeing the Iranian people to rule themselves(finally), and a giant step back from global war.
Another thing that seems so odd is the opposition groups throughout the world in democratic and striving to be democratic countries are fighting to install fundamentalist governments while the ground zero of fundamentalist governments, Iran, is fighting tooth and nail to put down an opposition movement that is striving for a secular democracy.
If not even the Iranian people enjoy the lifestyle fundamentalism has created for them for so many years, how can you be so enthusiastic about trying to encourage its development in other countries?
And even on the subject of defending the fundamentalists, Sam, you can play "Lawyer Ball" all you want citing the Iranian president only said that "God" instead of he "was going to wipe out Israel." But given that he is actively funding a group whose name means "Party of God" you can't help but think he's planning to give "God" some assistance.
What you don't seem to realize is that wiping out Israel with nukes or just massive onslaughts of high yield missiles will also destroy Palestine in the process.
The nuclear fallout alone would wipe out the vast majority of the surviving Palestinians within six months from radiation exposure.
And the land that has been so sought after will now be rendered radioactive and uninhabital for decades and possibly centuries to come(depending on yield of nuclear payload).
A wiped out Israel on Monday, will be the spark to the massive regionwide Sunni-Shiite war on Tuesday.
Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, the majority Sunni population of Syria, not to mention the West(on behalf of Israel), won't let Iran and friends get away with the mass extermination of Sunni Palestinians.
So your little war has just spawned a massive one. So much for your pursuit of justice and peace.
Which brings me to wondering what your motive is in all this.
Pretend Israel is wiped out without any repercussions. What's in it for you?
Do you get some kind of "Wiped Out Israel" prize? Two free plane tickets to the authoritarian state of your choice along with a gallon of free oil?
Will you get some kind of pay raise at work? Do your mortgage rates suddenly get cut in half? Will supermodels suddenly find you irresistible?
Does the void inside suddenly become filled? And for how long?
You claim to want justice, but will this do it?
Or is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict just an outword manifestation of some internal conflict within your own life over a personal incident that you feel you were unjustly treated, and now seek the resolution of this foreign problem as a cure all for whatever psychological pain you've since endured?
You've obviously got blinders on. I'm just wondering if it wasn't Israel who put them there, but instead you.
And just to add a note to an already long end of year post, in mentioning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I mean in terms of a violent Israel vs. Hamas conflict which requires one to annihilate the other instead of a peaceful Israel and Fatah coexistence where they resolve their boundary disputes like all other peaceful sectarian democracies do....by suing each other into oblivion.
-Happy New Year from Slavic Mike
To Anonymous,
>>So its a problem...because I am zionist
Yes this is the heart of the problem. It is all the difference between a Nazi and a German or between a white South African and an appartheid Africaner.
>>I'm atheist
Me too
>>just can't accept us living here
It is the OPPOSITE! We have been living with jews among us for thousands of years it is the israelis that don't accept most Palestinians living "here".
That is the problem!
If you compare israel to the nazis germany or suth africa, so we realy don't have about what to talk...mybe one day, if some people in our countries make peace, you will come to visit israel and you will undertand how much brain-washed you have been...I don't think that you are stupid, I think that your knowledge on israel and its people is very small...but hey, you said that iran is a freedom democracy so to hear from you that my regime is nazi is mybe compliment...
but serios, I realy sorry that you think like that on my country...but mybe you just want to see us like you said, its some excuse for you to hate us because the hate, as I see it, someting more deeper inside you...
I don't think that I need to be the ambassador of my country, I'm not a patriot...I think that there is enough people like this in my country and around the world...but again I hope that you can visit israel some day and see in your eyes that we are not like south africa, and the law in israel is even more liberal than the law of the states.
for example, in israel there is no death sentence, israel is number 27 in freedom of press, we have one of the best hight court of law, and if you don't know, this court of law help the palestinians a lot, israel give humanitarian help around the world, we have 20% muslims in israel they can vote, demonstrate and they have right exctly like me, even more because they consider to minority- they can learn free in university and stuff..I don't think that we are like nazi germany, and not like south africa, we have democracy and any kind of racist are going to the court of law...yes there is racist people, and even the govermant somtetimes legislate rules against palestinians, and sometimes even israeli arabs, this happen because the security problem that we live in...but when its happen people go to demonstrate and the high court of law don't accept it.
O.K I cleared my point there is much more dark regimes than israel and if you think that we are like nazi geramny so I think that you sould learn on israel more.
p.s. why have you not answer my question?
To Slavic Mike,
I already told you if you have a problem with Iran attack it directly. As to the Iranian Council of Experts it is not very different from the US supreme court, does that mean the US is not a democracy?
Iran was just one of many examples of western interferences in the region I didn't mean to talk about Iran, because again I'm not Iranian I'm Lebanese.
Now as to Hezbollah's weapons they are part of a strategy that is defensive in essence, when the Lebanese army will be organised in a way that enables it to face israel (ie asymetrical warfare) or any other agressor THEN we will not need the Hezbollah weapons.
Of course you are right to mention that corrupt leaders are a problem in the Middle East but we are going to get rid of those corrupt dictators one by one, it's a promise! We are starting with the king in Jordan, Egyptian Mubarak, Saudi royal corrupt family, the one in Oman, Quatar... Amen, God bless liberty freedom and democracy, power to the people!
To Anonymous,
I didn't mean to compare zionism to Nazism or appartheid I was trying to say that we should get rid of zionism like we got rid of Nazism and appartheid. I could have the used the example of the USSR that was wiped out without killing a single Russian.
As to visiting israel, I would love to do that but only when the Palestinians (who want to) are allowed to go back to their land because it is also their land. Just like you, not more, not less, they have the right to live there too.
To Anonymous,
I forgot to answer your question:
>>if now olmert call to senira and
>>tell him that he wants peace,
>>israel will give you Shaba
>>Farms, and you disarmed hezbolla
>>do you support seniora in such a
>>move
I support it if that includes allowing the 300,000 Palestinians or so in Lebanon to return to their land (or to a second state called Palestine if one is created).
With another state near israel, I've no problem...
Your remark is fundamentaly racist I don't know if you are aware of it or not. In this you really sound like a Nazi German who would say something like: "I don't want any jews here they can go somewhere else" or a white South African who would say "I don't want any Blacks here they can go live somewhere else".
You remark is full of hate, there is no peace possible with a racist mentality like this.
LoL, realy dude you need to stop with this nazi germany if you want that people will take you seriosly...my grandfather is an holocaust survivor...you want to call someone nazi, do it infront him and not in the internet, all this comapring to the nazis make what they do look very small.
I don't say that I don't want here arabs, like you don't want israelis in your country, because they are not Lebaneses, I don't think that strange people who don't do nothing for my country, some of them fight with us, without any connection to the our culture, and our identity will live here. it is the same to anybody, Chinese, arabs, americans...personally I'm against giving jews citizenship just because they are jews...but this is the jewish state...there is ,like I said before, 20% arabs in my country and I see them israelis exctly like me...(some of them see themself diffrent but this is another issue)...every one who born in israel, or live here before the establishment of our state, and didn't ran away when 7 armies knock in our door, entitled to citizenship...you asked why is israel called the jewish state, this is far more complicated issue, and it belong to the past, no me or you can change it. if we like it or not.
I would say it to you and your grandfather in your face "you are racists" and "your ideology (not yet your deeds) is not very different from Nazism".
If you don't want to live with the people of the Middle East don't come to the Middle East.
Being a holocaust survivor does not give you the right to take other people's houses and keep them from returning to their land.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
So let me say to you that for my opinion you support in a facist organizetion, that most of the world consider to terrorists, and if you don't want to live with us in peace this is your problem...
and no, the right of return like I said isn't an option, if you like it or not, people can't return to this country when they haven't see it before, and have nothing in common with the people who live there, especially when they are more than 20 million, its can't possible from a physical point of view also. I'm not talkin here that the israelis build this country, and make it to be the strongest country in the middle east, military, and economic.
mybe it isn't righteous, but this happend in the past, if you ask me, if I would support in such a move before 60 years I can't say to you the answer, it was a diffrent time, and people look on thing in diffrent prespactive.
I think that after 60 years, 7 wars its about time to make peace, and to live israeli state with 48 border next to palestinians state with 67 border.
if you think that the israelis will accept the right of return you wrong and we will keep fighting for years. this is the sad thing.
and for
people need to do compromise, and this including you...(I even don't know why its connection to peace with lebanon, as you remember I talked on peace with lebanon).
and if it was like you said, that we are aphartied like south africa, I think that you would been in the majority, and not in the minority with your opinion, and realy mybe you don't learnd in history lessons about the nazis, their rules and their actions...if you want some link or to know more about it, you can ask and I will glat to give you this.
and than you will see how much ridiculous and unfair, yes unfair to the people that all the time fight on the democarcy here, this comparison.
you don't know me and you don't know my grandfather...so please stop with this.
I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with you, but I don't come to personally issues with you or your family. I don't know you, and you don't me, if you want to discuss like adults I'm hear to talk, but if you want to insult me so I finished.
>>the right of return like I said
>>isn't an option, if you like it
>>or not, people can't return to
>>this country when they haven't
>>see it before
Riiiight, but you have the right to come after 3000 years and throw 90% of the people out!!
You talk about peace but peace requires justice. If there is no justice there will never be peace.
So what you are telling me is that you will never have peace, that's your choice not ours.
Palestine does not belong to you so you are right when you say it is not negociable for how can you negociate something that is not yours.
The topic has obviously gone off track from Lebanese affairs, but I concede that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict isn't that far off the spectrum.
First up, responses to Sam:
-"attacking Iran"
It's just the same ol' back and forth on this one, with you claiming I'm focusing on Iran too much, and my reply that Hezbollah is an extention of Iran and that to attack Iran is to attack HA and vice versa.
Nothing new here, just the same game of verbal ping pong. Your serve....
I will say, though, recalling comments directing me to go back to the Czech Republic since I seem to like it so much, why don't you move to Iran for awhile? I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms given your views.
With your enthusiasm and expertise on Lebanon, they may just ask you to join the Qod's Force: Seventh Corps. which is Iran's paramilitary unit operating in Lebanon and Syria.
-US Supreme Court deciding elections
The 2000 election, which (I assume you're referring to) was an extremely rare case, is an example that you're taking out of context. Not, to mention the recounts of ballots after the court ruling confirmed the prior results.
The Supreme Court (and any other US government body) DOES NOT decide who is allowed to run and DOES NOT decide whether or not to allow the elected official to take the office the voters have chosen him or her for.
The Council of Experts' job is to monitor the "supreme guide" and the comparison doesn't apply. It's the Guardian Council which you're comparing to the US Supreme Court, and no the Guardian Council operates the exact opposite as the US S.C. rewriting laws and rules on behalf of those in power instead of adhereing to an over 200 year old document of established laws and rules including the Bill of Rights extending freedom to all US citizens.
-HA supposedly being armed in the name of "protecting" Lebanon's army until it matures to fight for itself.
Lebanon didn't need any defense following the Israeli withdrawal in 2000. Israel had no intentions of taking any hostile action until HA and its WEAPONS gave them a reason to.
And how do you expect Lebanon to build an effective army when the first essential task for any country's military is to rid its own country of seperatist militias to ensure that it is the sole source of force in the land?
How about you disarm HA, not for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of Lebanon's Army so they can carry out their duties(without HA creeping in the shadows) so they can be capable of providing defense against Israel if need be?
If you continue to foster the threat within the country, you will continue to be without a national defense against outside ones.
-Dictators throughout the Middle East
Again Sam, no one can take you seriously when you site tyrants in the middle east and leave out Syria and Iran.
Their track record against their own citizens is atrocious and it is because Syria and Iran are so horrible on human rights that places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan are considered "moderate" countries by comparison.
-"power to the people"
That was one of the slogans Hugo Chavez voiced during his re-election bid in 2006, and following his questionable win(17 million of 26 million names showed up on voter registration lists in a country where only 40% are old enough to vote meaning that at most 10.4 million should have been the maximum amount to show up in the electoral records).
Another tidbit is since Chavez took power away from the "rich" by becoming president to "help the people" back in 1999/2000, government spending on public housing is down by 33%.
And no Sam, I don't think you're Venezuelan, you don't type with a Spanish accent(just kidding).
On to the Israeli/Palestinian discourse,
Jews and Palestians didn't exactly live in peace. During the years leading up to WWII, Palestinians often kidnapped Jews and smuggled them up to European Nazi death camps.
Also, one of the main Salafists in the region at the time is captured on film saying: "In heaven you master is Allah, on earth it is Adolf Hitler"
Not exactly signs of peace during pre-Israel times, is it?
Obviously both sides have lost the same parcel of land throughout history, Palestinians being the most recent, but it's hard to think calls for returning of land, land sharing, etc. can even be focused on when all eyes and thoughts are on whether the Palestinian guy speaking of these issues in front of you is wearing a bomb or not.
The Palestinian people have done an incredible disservice to themselves by resorting to tactics that make them come off as savages and barbarians in eyes of the modern world.
A Mother cheering on her son, who has accomplished a masters degrees in engineering, as he heads out to "martyr" himself in the hopes of taking a few Israeli's with him to the beyond is not a great PR campaign.
It causes a reaction of pure revulsion by onlookers, who, even if they thought the land was yours in the first, could never support giving it back to a people actively engaged in such self inflicted atrocities.
Your actions do nothing but strengthen Israel's cause both inside its borders and abroad.
You should focus on how to go about getting back your dignity and respect for human life before even contemplating land.
If you instead took the children you've educated into the highest echelons of academia and installed in them a desire to live and function as proper citizens, who could then work towards a peaceful restoration of land, Israel would have no case against you.
India's occupation by the British, and even South Africa's apartheid you often cite, didn't find freedom through such violent tactics as the ones you impose now, but through non-violent, peaceful resistance.
With this approach, I'm sure you would find many an Israeli willing to lend you a hand on your mutual journey towards happiness.
Maintaining your current collision course in pursuit of "Justice" will leave only "JUST US" bloggers who comment from afar, reminiscing about a time when Israelis and Palestinians once lived on the soil of Jerusalem which has since been replaced by a giant uninhabitable crater.
The choice of paths is yours to make.
Well from experience this is an endless discussion, so let me help oyou out. To any political issue there is two main aspects, a normative one and an empirical one. In other words, Normative refers to good and bad, who is right and who is not; while empirical is the reality on the ground and how to find a solution that is possible, and I stress possible and not just or good, under these circumstances.
The normative side is too complex and frankly will lead to nothing. I can spend a day enumerating Israeli atrocities just to be answered by an even longer Palestinian list. If one argues that Israel kicked the Palestinian out of their houses, some can answer that 2000 years ago it was their land…Ad infinitum…
So let us leave the normative aspect aside, and focus on the empirical one. I believe in a two state solution.
However this possibility of implementing this solution is rapidly dwindling. I advice anyone interested in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to read the Geneva accord (http://www.geneva-accord.org), which is an unofficial agreement between second tier Palestinian and Israeli politician that got fed up with the current leadership of their respective faction and decided to find a solution that will end this never ending blood bath.
PS: Sam was your omission of Syria and Iran from the list of authoritarian regime on purpose or a mistake? Cause if it was on purpose I donno what to tell you!!!!!
And as always Peace…
Well from experience this is an endless discussion, so let me help you out. To any political issue there is two main aspects, a normative one and an empirical one.
In other words, Normative refers to good and bad, who is right and who is not; while empirical is the reality on the ground and how to find a solution that is possible, and I stress possible and not just or good, under these circumstances.
The normative side is too complex and frankly will lead to nothing. I can spend a day enumerating Israeli atrocities just to be answered by an even longer Palestinian list. If one argues that Israel kicked the Palestinian out of their houses, some can answer that 2000 years ago it was their land…Ad infinitum…
So let us leave the normative aspect aside, and focus on the empirical one. I believe in a two state solution. However this possibility of implementing this solution is rapidly dwindling. I advice anyone interested in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to read the Geneva accord (http://www.geneva-accord.org), which is an unofficial agreement between second tier Palestinian and Israeli politician that got fed up with the current leadership of their respective faction and decided to find a solution that will end this never ending blood bath.
PS: Sam was your omission of Syria and Iran from the list of authoritarian regime on purpose or a mistake? Cause if it was on purpose I donno what to tell you!!!!!
And as always Peace…
Bob,
I didn't omit Syria it was
included in the ... it just
wasn't a priority (I thought)
I have no problem with democracy
in Syria (it would put the muslim
brotherhood in power most likely).
It is israel and the US resisting
this change, not me!
I'm kind of disappointed, I came loaded for bear on this subject and all I see is Sam saying that his exclusion of Syria on his list of oppressive powers in the Middle East was just a harmless mistake.
But, even in your retraction you still didn't include the MULLAHS OF IRAN.
I'd agree that the US and Israel aren't a big fan of democracy in Syria if it means bringing the Muslim Brotherhood to power, after all it was this group that became the first modern terrorist organization in the Middle East back in the early 1920's along the Suez Canal of Egypt.
They greatly resented the western attributes they saw taking hold of their fellow Egyptians such as alcohol, theaters, woman walking around in anything less than a burka, and the concept of merriment in general.
Granted the Suez Canal was under post World War I British occupation and although maintaining the port for a reliable oil supply(as we Westerners have always loved to do) was the main objective, it was also under British control to maintain trade in goods with Middle Eastern, African, and Indian economies. A further concern was the burgeoning Soviet Empire that had taken hold in Russia during WWI and was beginning to expand its influence throughout the region that poised it as the biggest emerging threat to the West and Middle East alike (the Nazi Empire was still in its gestation).
But enough of the "mea culpa" history lesson. It was these original seven founders of the Muslim Brotherhood who set the goal of creating a global caliphate through violence if necessary to make Islam the one and only religion of the world(possibly taking a page from Christianity's playbook, they tend to have the same game plan).
This group covertly trained and engaged in several guerrilla operations against the government of Egypt whose brutal crackdowns(not much different from today's) dispersed their ranks throughout the Middle East.
It was following a mass release of Muslim Brotherhood(MB) prisoners in the late 60's that a schism formed in the group.
The old guard of the MB, realizing that violence wasn't working to secure their objectives, set out on a new course of peaceful demonstrations, politics, and so forth to achieve their goals.
The younger members, still convinced that the violent tactics weren't working because they simply weren't violent enough.
So MB went off in one direction and the younger members splintered into groups that eventually turned into today's Al Qaeda, Hizbullah, etc.
Now given that MB has sworn off violence officially, although they've often been linked to violence, they are still diametrically opposed to the aims of the West (secular government, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc.).
So Uncle Sam(how ironic) and Uncle Shlomo(?) would not like to see them in charge under current circumstances, simply because as Iran has shown, they're happy to give loans to any western dissenting groups to stir up trouble.
HOWEVER, if Iran was out of the picture, the Bank of Terrorism in Tehran would be closed for business and even if the MB(having assumed power democratically in a post-Assad government) truly sought to do massive damage, they would be without anyone to bankroll their efforts, making them far easier to contain. Of course, there's always the Saudi's with their own funding efforts, but I doubt they would be as gung-ho as to spend $1 billion dollars a year on clearly nefarious operations(at least at this time).
And because there's no free money handout for religiously inspired mayhem, the normal commercial practices of the world would fill the vacuum and things would slowly normalize in Syria leaving less motive for extremeism. And finally sustained peace and stability in Lebanon(figured I should tie Lebanon in, given this is a Lebanese blog).
-Israeli/Palestinian(Hamas) Conflict
To at least sum up the situation of Palestine's(Hamas-like) efforts for either a return of land, land sharing, their own country, etc.
I would say simply that the tactics used thus far by extremists Palestinians in pursuit of independence have already been proven to fail.
Take Ireland for example. The Irish homeland has been occupied by the British for a whole lot longer than any Palestinian lands.
And Irish resistance factions using Hamas like tactics (except for suicide bombing since any form of taking one's own life is defined as a sin in the Catholic Religion no matter how important the cause), such as the most famously known one, the I.R.A. (Irish Republican Army) killed many a Britain in pursuit of the full return of Northern Ireland and complete independence for their island.
And to this day, they still don't have independence because they went about it the wrong way, claiming victim status for being oppressed by a foreign power while simultaneously creating victims by their own hands through brutal shootings, bombings, etc.
But Scotland, on the other hand, which swore off violence in pursuit of independence a long time ago, has recently caught the "indepence bug" and has begun to take steps for secession and self rule initiated through ballot measures and it's own political channels.
Now, they're of course in the first stages, but surveys show a majority of support by both Scots and their counterparts, the Brits, for Scottish self rule, free of animosity, the type Ireland still can't arouse.
The point is, Scotland will see it's freedom long before Ireland, simply because it took a path of peace in its journey to self-rule instead of one of violence.
And, no the British never built a wall to contain the Irish, because they didn't need one due to the Irish Sea already separating the two.
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